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Old 08-17-2010, 11:23 AM
Elmar Hinz
 
Default Is gentoo-prefix a solution for me?

Hello folk,

I am currently working on a tool, a USB-stick,
to set up a typical freelancers development environment the easy way.


1.) I want to run it on any computer, --> Win, Lin, Mac.

So it has to be platform independent.


2.) I want install it up and running.

the usual OSS stuff: SVN, Eclipse, Apache, Java, etc.

The auto configuration is the task of my tool.


3.) Best to do it without root permissions

in example in $HOME/workspace/

OK, guess starting Apache requires root privileges.


4.) A want to versionize also the environment sources (servers)

I want be able to restore any development version
of a project in it's original runtime environment.


Hope you get the basic ideas.

My researches brought me to the gentoo prefix.

* it defines itself as a second level management tool
* it says it can work on all 3 OSS types


Do you think gentoo prefix matches my requirements?

Would it give a suitable base for the tool?

Is is stable enough?


If it can do the job, I would like to join the team,
to bring back my efforts into the prefix project.

Regards

Al
 
Old 08-17-2010, 11:44 AM
Fabian Groffen
 
Default Is gentoo-prefix a solution for me?

On 17-08-2010 13:23:32 +0200, Elmar Hinz wrote:
> 3.) Best to do it without root permissions
>
> in example in $HOME/workspace/
>
> OK, guess starting Apache requires root privileges.

depends if you want to use a privileged port or not

> 4.) A want to versionize also the environment sources (servers)
>
> I want be able to restore any development version
> of a project in it's original runtime environment.

Not sure what you mean exactly, but I think either your scripts/tools or
regular versioning of packages can help you out.

> Hope you get the basic ideas.
>
> My researches brought me to the gentoo prefix.
>
> * it defines itself as a second level management tool

right, it lives on top of the host

> * it says it can work on all 3 OSS types

Windows one limited on Interix, very limited native windows, cross built
from Interix.

> Do you think gentoo prefix matches my requirements?

Your application requests may need some work, though I'm not sure if the
overhead of Gentoo Prefix is worth your goals. Before you can e.g. just
get SVN, you've already installed yourself lots of stuff including a
compiler.

> Would it give a suitable base for the tool?
>
> Is is stable enough?

I use it full-time in my everyday live, but your mileage may vary

> If it can do the job, I would like to join the team,
> to bring back my efforts into the prefix project.

We always welcome that, provided that there is place for a long-time
commitment. Contributions are always more than welcome, of course.


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
 
Old 08-17-2010, 12:35 PM
Elmar Hinz
 
Default Is gentoo-prefix a solution for me?

>> * it says it can work on all 3 OSS types
>
> Windows one limited on Interix, very limited native windows, cross built
> from Interix.
>

Wikipedia writes Interix only is build into enterprise editions, which
sounds like
a limitation. Do you see a GPL compatible way to get it running on standard
editions?

>> Do you think gentoo prefix matches my requirements?
>
> Your application requests may need some work, though I'm not sure if the
> overhead of Gentoo Prefix is worth your goals. *Before you can e.g. just
> get SVN, you've already installed yourself lots of stuff including a
> compiler.

The alternative would be, to store binary versions of apache and co. into
SVN. That for different architectures. Maybe better.

I think it doesn't matter if an automated build takes 15 minutes. You want
do that every morning, but it is still much faster, than setting up a
development environment by hand, especially a concrete one from the history.

>
> We always welcome that, provided that there is place for a long-time
> commitment. *Contributions are always more than welcome, of course.
>

Well if I decide to build that tool upon prefix, that automatically includes
a long term commitment, even if only a few hours per month. My daily
work, and probably that of others will depend upon, if the tool gets a
success.

Regards

Al
 
Old 08-17-2010, 12:45 PM
Elmar Hinz
 
Default Is gentoo-prefix a solution for me?

>
> I think it doesn't matter if an automated build takes 15 minutes. You want
> do that every morning, but it is still much faster, than setting up a
> development environment by hand, especially a concrete one from the history.
>

Sorry, my English is a little limited. I wanted to say, you need not
to do it every
morning, but only on the first installation or when an update is required.
 
Old 08-17-2010, 04:47 PM
Michael Haubenwallner
 
Default Is gentoo-prefix a solution for me?

On 08/17/2010 02:35 PM, Elmar Hinz wrote:
>>> * it says it can work on all 3 OSS types
>>
>> Windows one limited on Interix, very limited native windows, cross built
>> from Interix.
>
> Wikipedia writes Interix only is build into enterprise editions, which
> sounds like a limitation.
> Do you see a GPL compatible way to get it running on standard
> editions?

Iff you can get your final image to contain native windows binaries only
(depends on the packages you need to provide there), you could use some
enterprise or server edition as build environment, which does "cross"-compile
(well, somehow) the native windows part.

But still, the native windows part has very limited abilities:
We do not build bash (and many others) as native windows binary, so without
Interix you won't be able to use any shell-scripts, or do anything with
unix-like paths.

OTOH: In theory(!) it should be possible to use any POSIX emulation layer
such as Cygwin or even MinGW instead of Interix...

/haubi/
--
Michael Haubenwallner
Gentoo on a different level
 
Old 08-17-2010, 04:47 PM
Michael Haubenwallner
 
Default Is gentoo-prefix a solution for me?

On 08/17/2010 01:23 PM, Elmar Hinz wrote:
> Hello folk,
>
> I am currently working on a tool, a USB-stick,
> to set up a typical freelancers development environment the easy way.

This sounds like pure image distribution without installing anything,
at least not "installing" the binary packages in portage-speaking.

To get this working on the target machines, your USB-stick content need to be
available at the very same location as where it was built for, even on Windows.
As long as you don't need a C/C++-Compiler, symlinks should do on Linux & Mac,
because there is a (still unconfirmed) bug in gcc breaking with symlinks, which
should be fixable though. IIRC, there is some mechanism to mount something
to some location more complex than just a drive letter on windows.

> 1.) I want to run it on any computer, --> Win, Lin, Mac.
>
> So it has to be platform independent.

Well, the source of your tool can be platform independent,
but your USB-stick content does not. You will have to create
either different USB-sticks, or different paths on one stick
for each target platform.

> 2.) I want install it up and running.
>
> the usual OSS stuff: SVN, Eclipse, Apache, Java, etc.

This sounds like pure Java development:
When you do not need a C/C++-Compiler in your target image, nor any
unixish shell scripts or unixish path operations, in theory it *might*
be possible to provide the windows image without any Interix part, so
you need Interix on your build machine only.
But this would be really hard work.

> The auto configuration is the task of my tool.
>
>
> 3.) Best to do it without root permissions
>
> in example in $HOME/workspace/

I doubt you can "provide" your images within this path. But it should
be possible to have your Eclipse(?) "use" this path at Eclipse's runtime.

> OK, guess starting Apache requires root privileges.

Although I don't really know about Apache, it should be possible for any
user to run it on any unprivileged port (>1024).

> 4.) A want to versionize also the environment sources (servers)
>
> I want be able to restore any development version
> of a project in it's original runtime environment.

Unclear what you mean with "project" as well as "runtime environment".

> Is is stable enough?

I'd say it depends on your qa- and distribution-requirements:

If you do your image releases once in a while without upgrades,
you might want to do this based on the original prefix tree, and
get it working again before your next release.

If you continuously have to be able to provide *tested* images or upgrades,
or to distribute from source, I'd prefer maintaining stable keywords in a
fork of tree once it works, cherry-picking changes back and forth, so you
have total control over your tree and its stability - even if you get out
of date quite quickly. Because I doubt the prefix project gets enough
manpower to maintain stable keywords soon enough.

HTH,
/haubi/
--
Michael Haubenwallner
Gentoo on a different level
 
Old 08-17-2010, 05:57 PM
Elmar Hinz
 
Default Is gentoo-prefix a solution for me?

2010/8/17 Michael Haubenwallner <haubi@gentoo.org>:

>
> OTOH: In theory(!) it should be possible to use any POSIX emulation layer
> such as Cygwin or even MinGW instead of Interix...
>

That sounds good. I already was thinking in that direction. Taking
Cygwin to get a naked POSIX environment and then installing Gentoo
into it. In theory that should work.

But somewhere an interface to the Windows window manager would be
required, to run graphical programs like Eclipse. But let's not lockup
to Java only, take Firefox for example. Does Cygwin or MinGW give us
this interface to export our graphical components into the Windows
windows?

Al
 
Old 08-17-2010, 07:06 PM
Elmar Hinz
 
Default Is gentoo-prefix a solution for me?

2010/8/17 Michael Haubenwallner <haubi@gentoo.org>:
>
> On 08/17/2010 01:23 PM, Elmar Hinz wrote:
>> Hello folk,
>>
>> I am currently working on a tool, a USB-stick,
>> to set up a typical freelancers development environment the easy way.
>
> This sounds like pure image distribution without installing anything,
> at least not "installing" the binary packages in portage-speaking.

Well, I want to install it. I don't want to run it on the USB-stick itself.
It should do kinda professional workspace setup.

If I go with binaries or even an image, I have to set up an archive of all this
binaries and in different versions. Then it becomes a new linux
distro. Who needs
that?

That's why I am thinking of a tool, which builds upon an active distro.
If it builds automatically from the source, than it can build for
different target platforms.
It just gets the sources from an mirror of that distro. So I don't
have to run an
archive myself.

Gentoo has fantastic tools to do exactly that. With Prefix even in the
userspace.

I just need to find a way, to run Gentoo even on Windows, without
installing a virtual
machine.

In short, Gentoo on a different level. ;-)

>
>> 2.) I want install it up and running.
>>
>> * * the usual OSS stuff: *SVN, Eclipse, Apache, Java, etc.
>
> This sounds like pure Java development:

No, it should be a general solution, even if it is written itself in
the Java dialect Groovy.
But if use Gentoo I would consider to switch to the language emerge is
done with.

>
> Although I don't really know about Apache, it should be possible for any
> user to run it on any unprivileged port (>1024).

Good hint. That should do for typical development.

>
> Unclear what you mean with "project" as well as "runtime environment".
>

With environment I mean all the software your piece of code depends upon,
servers, libraries, frameworks, plugins, ....

Imagine you are a freelancer. Your customer comes after 5 years and
wants a small additional feature
to his 5 years old plugin maybe 10 lines of code. In the world of
webservers, it can take days to get the
original testing environment running,

... if you don't want to hack into the live server, like you even can
observe on major websites.

Either you mirror the current customers server, or you just fetch the
complete environment
from your 5 years old subversion. Best you can do both to compare them.

I just want to enter the version number et voilá, there is my original
environment, up
and running again.

But mind, this is a completely different task, compared to the initial setup.

For the initial setup I prefer sources, for the reasons given above.
The backup step could also be done in form of binaries.

While the setup tool is a public OSS thingy, the personal SVN
versionizing remains
the task of the user. He can do it in binary form or in form of the
original sources
of the environment.

Regards

Al
 
Old 08-17-2010, 08:12 PM
Fabian Groffen
 
Default Is gentoo-prefix a solution for me?

On 17-08-2010 21:06:28 +0200, Elmar Hinz wrote:
> Either you mirror the current customers server, or you just fetch the
> complete environment
> from your 5 years old subversion. Best you can do both to compare them.
>
> I just want to enter the version number et voilá, there is my original
> environment, up
> and running again.

I don't want to spoil the fun, but this is practically impossible. Old
software doesn't compile any more on recent systems for a magnitude of
reasons. Binary versions no longer run for another bunch of reasons.
The only thing that really works, is a snapshot of the entire system of
a moment in the past.


--
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
 
Old 08-17-2010, 08:47 PM
Elmar Hinz
 
Default Is gentoo-prefix a solution for me?

2010/8/17 Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org>:
> On 17-08-2010 21:06:28 +0200, Elmar Hinz wrote:
>> Either you mirror the current customers server, or you just fetch the
>> complete environment
>> from your 5 years old subversion. Best you can do both to compare them.
>>
>> I just want to enter the version number et voilá, there is my original
>> environment, up
>> and running again.
>
> I don't want to spoil the fun, but this is practically impossible. *Old
> software doesn't compile any more on recent systems for a magnitude of
> reasons. *Binary versions no longer run for another bunch of reasons.
> The only thing that really works, is a snapshot of the entire system of
> a moment in the past.
>

Now, I generally have a 5 years old notebook somewhere. I state that I
could compile a 5 years old apache with a 5 years old compiler using
a 5 years old live CD, if I have all dependent sources available.

And that's exactly one of my targets, having ALL required sources
available in the projects SVN -- apart from the notebook -- precisely
for every single version of a project. It's a kind of time machine.

But that is not the target that really matters this thread. The other
target is the interesting one, to use Prefix to get a project
initially running with a setup that is reproducable on different
machines.

Al
 

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