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Old 05-29-2008, 12:14 AM
"Mikkel L. Ellertson"
 
Default Fedora 9 and Security

Amadeus W.M. wrote:

You can use uuids, labels or device names. Nothing has changed there.
The defaults the installer uses have changed, and it makes no sense for
the installer to ask new users questions like

Use UUID, LABEL or device name ?"

Because the answer in 99.99% cases is "uh ??"



In which case (and only then) the installer can choose for them, but let
there be choice with sensible (and visible) defaults for the others.



If you were going to give the choice during install, it would make
sense to have the option only show up during an expert install.

Because if I'm a new user and I want to change, say, from UUID to labels
(post-installation) I may not know how to do that. You don't suppose new
users would know better after than before, do you?

Would a new user know enough about either method to want to make the
change in the first place?


I guess my first question would be "If you do not know enough about
UUID and partition labels to figure out how to do it, then why are
you trying to make the change?" Is the change just a whim of the
user, or is there some problem they are trying to solve? If they are
trying to solve a problem, maybe they should look at the problem,
and why they think the change will solve it. I am having a hard time
trying to think of a problem that would be solved this way.


Mikkel
--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!

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Old 05-29-2008, 03:04 AM
"Amadeus W.M."
 
Default Fedora 9 and Security

On Thu, 29 May 2008 01:02:12 +0100, Alan Cox wrote:

>> > Because the answer in 99.99% cases is "uh ??"
>> >
>> >
>> Or: "OK, let me chose the default".
>
> Why even ask the question - if you know what you are doing you can
> change it later on.


What if you don't know what you're doing, but simply do not want the newly
introduced feature X for whatever reason?

>
> We don't go around asking
>
> Preferred Emailer
> What inode size should we use on ext3 Adjust raid readahead
>
>
> so why ask about what to most users are internal details about how we
> make sure their data reappears next reboot ?
>

Where do you draw the line? Is "which ports do you want to open in the
firewall" less technical? Is creating custom partitions less technical?
How about package selection? We do have a choice there (for now).

Incidentally and for my own understanding: I am able to mount/umount
/dev/sdaX and such, if I wanted to, so the system can and does know the
partitions by labels. Why do I have to see the UUID garbage in /etc/fstab
though? This is not a rant, it's an actual question.

I don't want to make a bigger deal of this than what it is. I only want to
say though, that the current effort to have the system do things for the
user without asking, unnerves people. (I'm thinking hal, sound, NM, etc.)
That's what I believe. I know I don't have to explain this to you, but
knowing what the system does at any time is arguably the one (and not the
only) reason why linux users use linux and not windows.


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Old 05-29-2008, 11:31 PM
Bill Davidsen
 
Default Fedora 9 and Security

Andras Simon wrote:

On 5/28/08, Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote:


You can use uuids, labels or device names. Nothing has changed there. The
defaults the installer uses have changed, and it makes no sense for the
installer to ask new users questions like

Use UUID, LABEL or device name ?"


How about old users? Perhaps in this new-user-friendly form:

"Use UUID (recommended), LABEL or device name ?"

Disclaimer: I've never heard of uuids before. But perhaps it'd make
sense for those of us who are using older releases of Fedora, have
several partitions, and would like to install F9 in a separate
partition so we can go back to F8 or F7 in case something goes
wrong, to chose LABEL.

Unless the new install has the same LABEL as one of the old ones. I know
three people who have been bitten by using LABEL and getting duplicates,
the beauty of UUID is that you won't get a dup with multiple installs,
you won't copy a filesystems only or off of a USB drive and plug the
drive with the old duplicate name back in a year later.


UUID is ugly, but useful.


Because the answer in 99.99% cases is "uh ??"



Or: "OK, let me chose the default".

And the reason it's default is that it's least likely to fail if the
user starts replugging drives, moving them, etc.


--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot

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Old 05-29-2008, 11:42 PM
Bill Davidsen
 
Default Fedora 9 and Security

Amadeus W.M. wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2008 01:02:12 +0100, Alan Cox wrote:


Because the answer in 99.99% cases is "uh ??"



Or: "OK, let me chose the default".

Why even ask the question - if you know what you are doing you can
change it later on.



What if you don't know what you're doing, but simply do not want the newly
introduced feature X for whatever reason?


We don't go around asking

Preferred Emailer
What inode size should we use on ext3 Adjust raid readahead


so why ask about what to most users are internal details about how we
make sure their data reappears next reboot ?



Where do you draw the line? Is "which ports do you want to open in the
firewall" less technical? Is creating custom partitions less technical?
How about package selection? We do have a choice there (for now).

Incidentally and for my own understanding: I am able to mount/umount
/dev/sdaX and such, if I wanted to, so the system can and does know the
partitions by labels. Why do I have to see the UUID garbage in /etc/fstab
though? This is not a rant, it's an actual question.

The system does not know partitions by label. Partitions don't have
labels (unless they're elements of an md array and have something in the
superblock). Partitions have device names, but they can change, drives
are named by the order of detection. So you can't always count on the
device name.


Filesystems have labels, and unlike partition device names or UUIDs,
they need not be unique, so two installs on different drives or
partitions can leave you with two filesystems names "/".


Only the UUID is (a) not going to change and (b) not going to be
duplicated by anything like normal system operation. It is therefore the
least likely to lead to an unwanted learning experience.


--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot

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Old 05-30-2008, 07:59 AM
"Niels Weber"
 
Default Fedora 9 and Security

2008/5/30 Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>:
> Filesystems have labels, and unlike partition device names or UUIDs, they
> need not be unique, so two installs on different drives or partitions can
> leave you with two filesystems names "/".
>
> Only the UUID is (a) not going to change and (b) not going to be duplicated
> by anything like normal system operation. It is therefore the least likely
> to lead to an unwanted learning experience.

As long as I still can mount a partition with the device name and
never need to remember the UUID, I'm fine with that.

Niels

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Old 06-05-2008, 04:43 PM
Robin Laing
 
Default Fedora 9 and Security

Bill Davidsen wrote:

Andras Simon wrote:

On 5/28/08, Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote:

Unless the new install has the same LABEL as one of the old ones. I know
three people who have been bitten by using LABEL and getting duplicates,
the beauty of UUID is that you won't get a dup with multiple installs,
you won't copy a filesystems only or off of a USB drive and plug the
drive with the old duplicate name back in a year later.


UUID is ugly, but useful.



Maybe there needs to be a simple way to show the UUID/Label/dev list for
each device. I have not looked at it in detail. Maybe a flag for the
various programs that use the UUID devices like df.



--
Robin Laing

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