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Old 05-24-2008, 02:24 PM
Timothy Murphy
 
Default Mysteries of sound in Fedora-9

I'm finding it very difficult to understand
the Sound setup in Fedora-9 with KDE.

Previously, sound did not work at all when I re-booted.
But after some unrecorded sequence of clicks
on f=>Applications=>Multimedia=>Sound Mixer
it suddenly started working.

Today, I wondered if the problem was something to do
with pulseaudio, so I tried killing this and re-starting it.
But I got the more or less incomprehensible error message below:
----------------------------------
[tim@elizabeth ~]$ sudo killall pulseaudio
[tim@elizabeth ~]$ sudo pulseaudio -D
W: main.c: This program is not intended to be run as root (unless --system
is specified).
[tim@elizabeth ~]$ pulseaudio -D
N: main.c: Called SUID root and real-time/high-priority scheduling was
requested in the configuration. However, we lack the necessary priviliges:
N: main.c: We are not in group 'pulse-rt' and PolicyKit refuse to grant us
priviliges. Dropping SUID again.
N: main.c: For enabling real-time scheduling please acquire the appropriate
PolicyKit priviliges, or become a member of 'pulse-rt', or increase the
RLIMIT_NICE/RLIMIT_RTPRIO resource limits for this user.
----------------------------------

So I added myself to the pulse-rt entry in /etc/group with vigr
(and the shadow file with vigr -S).
Then I pressed ctrl-alt-backspace and logged in again.

Now I get sound, but it is very quiet,
although every slider that I can see is pushed to the maximum.
Also the loudspeaker in the panel has disappeared.
I thought this was the icon for Sound Mixer,
but I find this is not so;
when I right click on Sound Mixer and add the icon to the panel
it is quite different.

Surely I cannot be the only person having these problems
with Sound under Fedora-9?
I should say that this is on an IBM ThinkPad T23.

Multimedia and in particular Sound is easily the weakest chain
in Fedora, and has been for several versions of Fedora.
The whole Sound system is absurdly complicated,
and disentangling it is like eating spaghetti.

I'd like to say to the Fedora and KDE sound teams,
"Please don't add or subtract anything
until you have properly documented what is already there.
Try adding some test files, and check that your error messages
are comprehensible, with advice on what steps to take."






























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Old 05-24-2008, 03:09 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default Mysteries of sound in Fedora-9

--- Timothy Murphy <gayleard@eircom.net> wrote:

>
> I'm finding it very difficult to understand
> the Sound setup in Fedora-9 with KDE.
>
> Previously, sound did not work at all when I
> re-booted.
> But after some unrecorded sequence of clicks
> on f=>Applications=>Multimedia=>Sound Mixer
> it suddenly started working.
>
> Today, I wondered if the problem was something to do
> with pulseaudio, so I tried killing this and
> re-starting it.
> But I got the more or less incomprehensible error
> message below:
> ----------------------------------
> [tim@elizabeth ~]$ sudo killall pulseaudio
> [tim@elizabeth ~]$ sudo pulseaudio -D
> W: main.c: This program is not intended to be run as
> root (unless --system
> is specified).
> [tim@elizabeth ~]$ pulseaudio -D
> N: main.c: Called SUID root and
> real-time/high-priority scheduling was
> requested in the configuration. However, we lack the
> necessary priviliges:
> N: main.c: We are not in group 'pulse-rt' and
> PolicyKit refuse to grant us
> priviliges. Dropping SUID again.
> N: main.c: For enabling real-time scheduling please
> acquire the appropriate
> PolicyKit priviliges, or become a member of
> 'pulse-rt', or increase the
> RLIMIT_NICE/RLIMIT_RTPRIO resource limits for this
> user.
> ----------------------------------
>
> So I added myself to the pulse-rt entry in
> /etc/group with vigr
> (and the shadow file with vigr -S).
> Then I pressed ctrl-alt-backspace and logged in
> again.
>
> Now I get sound, but it is very quiet,
> although every slider that I can see is pushed to
> the maximum.
> Also the loudspeaker in the panel has disappeared.
> I thought this was the icon for Sound Mixer,
> but I find this is not so;
> when I right click on Sound Mixer and add the icon
> to the panel
> it is quite different.
>
> Surely I cannot be the only person having these
> problems
> with Sound under Fedora-9?
> I should say that this is on an IBM ThinkPad T23.
>
> Multimedia and in particular Sound is easily the
> weakest chain
> in Fedora, and has been for several versions of
> Fedora.
> The whole Sound system is absurdly complicated,
> and disentangling it is like eating spaghetti.
>
> I'd like to say to the Fedora and KDE sound teams,
> "Please don't add or subtract anything
> until you have properly documented what is already
> there.
> Try adding some test files, and check that your
> error messages
> are comprehensible, with advice on what steps to
> take."
>
> --
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> fedora-list@redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>

I have seen many warnings that "**** so so package is
unavailable and will not be used fallback to other *?"
and sound works. I still hear sound, I logout and log
back and I see the same warnings I guess I am
guessed to it. I type
$ alsamixer
and I see a slider with only pulseaudio in some cases,
and in others I see an error that pulseaudio ....?

KDE used arts sound system, still uses it? The
integration of pulseaudio on it caused a great deal of
frustrations --> see Fedora 8 in case you need to be
refreshed. It is working its way up and still not
there yet "FOR ALL USERS". Other distros have
also included pulseaudio, Ubuntu, Mandriva, but not
all of them. The sound configuring tool has been
removed from Fedora *** cut + pasted from release
notes ***

8.1. Sound Card Utility

The system-config-soundcard utility has been removed,
due to numerous legacy design and implementation
issues. Modern technologies, including udev and the
HAL, have made certain sound cards work out of the
box. Any sound card not working out of the box should
be reported as a bug. Preferences can still be
fine-tuned within the desktop environment, using,
among others, the PulseAudio tools.

and some users are having difficulties getting sound
to work, maybe their sound cards are not supported
and it is not Fedora's fault or maybe sound used to
work before and now it does not .

For more information you can view the following thread
maybe it can be of help:
http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=188345

These are some "Unsolved Mysteries".

Rega




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Old 05-24-2008, 04:19 PM
stan
 
Default Mysteries of sound in Fedora-9

Timothy Murphy wrote:

[snip]

I can't help you with your specific problem, but I wanted to comment on
your observation below.

Multimedia and in particular Sound is easily the weakest chain
in Fedora, and has been for several versions of Fedora.
The whole Sound system is absurdly complicated,
and disentangling it is like eating spaghetti.


I've been observing the sound arena for a while now, and I think the
problem is that not enough resources are committed to it. Alsa itself is
sort of like X for video. A low level interface to build sound applications
on. It seems to work reasonably well given the handicaps. There are
dozens of sound card vendors as opposed to 3 video card vendors. The
specs for the sound cards are often not released or require proprietary
firmware to run correctly. So the spaghetti you perceive is just a true
reflection of the underlying reality, the soundcard universe is like
spaghetti.

Alsa will let you do just about anything with your sound device, but the
learning curve is steep.

What I think is missing is the equivalent of Gnome and KDE as desktop
managers for sound to hide this reality. Pulseaudio seems to be the
beginnings of this
higher level control. But it is still in the early stages. Give it a
few years

and it will probably be ubiquitous if it gets the resources. Sound is an
end user function, not a server function, and while linux is functional
as a

desktop, the target seems to be more towards servers. So sound isn't
a priority for the development process, unlike X which even servers
use for administration.

I'd like to say to the Fedora and KDE sound teams,
"Please don't add or subtract anything
until you have properly documented what is already there.
Try adding some test files, and check that your error messages
are comprehensible, with advice on what steps to take."



I don't think sound should be a Gnome or KDE thing, it should be a
sound thing they utilize. That is, they paste their own look and feel
on something like pulse to make it fit within their desktop concept.
Maybe they preconfigure and simplify so you just drag and drop or
select from menus.

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Old 05-24-2008, 04:32 PM
Timothy Murphy
 
Default Mysteries of sound in Fedora-9

Antonio Olivares wrote:

> and some users are having difficulties getting sound
> to work, maybe their sound cards are not supported
> and it is not Fedora's fault or maybe sound used to
> work before and now it does not .

Well, in my case while sound never worked when I re-booted
it sometimes started working after I fiddled with the Sound Mixer,
so evidently it is nothing to do with the hardware driver.

> For more information you can view the following thread
> maybe it can be of help:
> http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=188345

Thanks for the pointer.
This solved one problem for me -
I brought sound up to a reasonable volume
by using the sound controls at the top of my keyboard.

It seems that this volume control
and the one in the Sound Mixer are completely independent,
which I did not realize and find surprising?

Also, IIRC the keyboard volume controls used to bring up
a horizontal bar at the bottom of the desktop,
as they do in Windows - but this seems to have disappeared in Fedora?





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Old 05-25-2008, 01:30 PM
Timothy Murphy
 
Default Mysteries of sound in Fedora-9

I'm still baffled by sound on my Fedora-9 + KDE ThinkPad T23.
What puzzles me is that sound never works when I logon,
but starts at some point when I play with the sound settings.

Today I muted the Front bar, and then unmuted it,
and sound started working.

But what I'd like to know is how I can test the sound system,
to see where the problem arises?
Is it at driver level?
Or is it something to do with pulseaudio?
Or is it something to do with xine?
What I'd really like is a suite of test programs
which will check each stage along the "sound stack".

Someone mentioned trying something like "cat foo.ogg > /dev/dsp".
In my case, when sound is working this produces a white noise.
Is this testing the sound driver
(in my case snd_intel8x0 , I assume) directly?

I guess what I'm looking for is a Fedora Sound FAQ,
with Q1: I have no sound, what can I do?


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Old 05-25-2008, 02:09 PM
Tim
 
Default Mysteries of sound in Fedora-9

On Sun, 2008-05-25 at 14:30 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> I'm still baffled by sound on my Fedora-9 + KDE ThinkPad T23.
> What puzzles me is that sound never works when I logon,
> but starts at some point when I play with the sound settings.

Do you mean no sound until you fiddle with any settings (configurations,
or just user controls like volume), or that you expect some sound to
play as you login? (Not my area, but clarifying such things might help
someone else answer you.)

> Today I muted the Front bar, and then unmuted it,
> and sound started working.

Perhaps it's starting up in a muted condition? I seem to recall
something like that with alsa (yonks ago), that by default some volume
controls were off, and your last used settings weren't being used then
restored after logoff and reboot.

> Someone mentioned trying something like "cat foo.ogg > /dev/dsp".
> In my case, when sound is working this produces a white noise.
> Is this testing the sound driver
> (in my case snd_intel8x0 , I assume) directly?

If you catted a raw audio format, rather than a compressed one, to the
sound device, you ought to hear sound. Hearing garbage isn't really
going to prove much.

--
[tim@bigblack ~]$ uname -ipr
2.6.23.15-80.fc7 i686 i386

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.




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Old 05-25-2008, 03:11 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default Mysteries of sound in Fedora-9

--- Timothy Murphy <gayleard@eircom.net> wrote:

>
> I'm still baffled by sound on my Fedora-9 + KDE
> ThinkPad T23.
> What puzzles me is that sound never works when I
> logon,
> but starts at some point when I play with the sound
> settings.
>
> Today I muted the Front bar, and then unmuted it,
> and sound started working.
>
> But what I'd like to know is how I can test the
> sound system,
> to see where the problem arises?
> Is it at driver level?
> Or is it something to do with pulseaudio?
> Or is it something to do with xine?
> What I'd really like is a suite of test programs
> which will check each stage along the "sound stack".
>
> Someone mentioned trying something like "cat foo.ogg
> > /dev/dsp".
> In my case, when sound is working this produces a
> white noise.
> Is this testing the sound driver
> (in my case snd_intel8x0 , I assume) directly?
>
> I guess what I'm looking for is a Fedora Sound FAQ,
> with Q1: I have no sound, what can I do?
>
The release notes

http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f9/en_US/sn-Multimedia.html

and the following page which has not been updated to
reflect the removal of system-config-soundcard

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Multimedia/Sound

are the closest things that you can use to try to help
you out. There is always the alsa webpage:

http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page

There's a discussion at the fedoraforum

http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=180117

There's this page also (bit outdated)
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio

Maybe a pulseaudio troubleshooting guide?:

Regards,

Antonio
>
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> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>





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Old 05-25-2008, 03:22 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default Mysteries of sound in Fedora-9

--- Timothy Murphy <gayleard@eircom.net> wrote:

>
> I'm still baffled by sound on my Fedora-9 + KDE
> ThinkPad T23.
> What puzzles me is that sound never works when I
> logon,
> but starts at some point when I play with the sound
> settings.
>
> Today I muted the Front bar, and then unmuted it,
> and sound started working.
>
> But what I'd like to know is how I can test the
> sound system,
> to see where the problem arises?
> Is it at driver level?
> Or is it something to do with pulseaudio?
> Or is it something to do with xine?
> What I'd really like is a suite of test programs
> which will check each stage along the "sound stack".
>
> Someone mentioned trying something like "cat foo.ogg
> > /dev/dsp".
> In my case, when sound is working this produces a
> white noise.
> Is this testing the sound driver
> (in my case snd_intel8x0 , I assume) directly?
>
> I guess what I'm looking for is a Fedora Sound FAQ,
> with Q1: I have no sound, what can I do?
>

I have also found these pages afterwards the other
message. I hope that they are useful, but without any
warranty that they will help you solve the
mystery/mysteries of sound

http://pulseaudio.org/

http://pulseaudio.org/wiki/PerfectSetup

http://pulseaudio.org/wiki/FAQ

Regards,

Antonio
>
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>





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Old 05-25-2008, 03:36 PM
Timothy Murphy
 
Default Mysteries of sound in Fedora-9

Tim wrote:

>> Someone mentioned trying something like "cat foo.ogg > /dev/dsp".
>> In my case, when sound is working this produces a white noise.
>> Is this testing the sound driver
>> (in my case snd_intel8x0 , I assume) directly?
>
> If you catted a raw audio format, rather than a compressed one, to the
> sound device, you ought to hear sound. *Hearing garbage isn't really
> going to prove much.

Thanks for your interest and perseverance.

I gather that .wav is an uncompressed format (according to
<http://www.webopedia.com/DidYouKnow/Computer_Science/2005/digital_audio_formats.asp>),
but I just hear white noise if I cat this,
while I hear the sound properly with aplay:
-----------------------------------
[tim@elizabeth ~]$ cat /usr/share/sounds/alsa/Front_Center.wav > /dev/dsp
[tim@elizabeth ~]$ aplay /usr/share/sounds/alsa/Front_Center.wav
-----------------------------------

Do you actually hear the words if you give the first command above?


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Old 05-25-2008, 05:31 PM
Timothy Murphy
 
Default Mysteries of sound in Fedora-9

Antonio Olivares wrote:

>> I guess what I'm looking for is a Fedora Sound FAQ,
>> with Q1: I have no sound, what can I do?
>>
> The release notes
>
> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f9/en_US/sn-Multimedia.html
>
> and the following page which has not been updated to
> reflect the removal of system-config-soundcard
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Multimedia/Sound
>
> are the closest things that you can use to try to help
> you out. There is always the alsa webpage:
>
> http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page
>
> There's a discussion at the fedoraforum
>
> http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=180117
>
> There's this page also (bit outdated)
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio
>
> Maybe a pulseaudio troubleshooting guide?:

Thanks very much.
I'll be quiet now for a bit while I read through all these!



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