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Old 11-30-2007, 08:47 AM
Jonathan Dieter
 
Default Fedora and Ubuntu

On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 08:49 +0000, Mike C wrote:
> Indeed so. Also it is surely the case the for the majority of updates on a day
> to day basis the largest fraction of the time needed to complete the updates is
> likely to the downloading the update rpms.
>
> Therefore making sure the downloads come from a fast mirror is the most important
> factor in getting the overall elapsed time to be as short as possible.
>
> Once the rpms are all in the cache area then the update install is usually quite
> quick.
>

And, of course, there's yum-presto which downloads the *difference*
between the new updates and what's on your system, giving you a saving
of, on average, roughly 80%.

Until the official Fedora repositories are presto-enabled, you have to
make some changes to your .repo files. See
http://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/presto for more information.

Jonathan

Full disclosure: I am the yum-presto maintainer
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:53 AM
Andre Robatino
 
Default Fedora and Ubuntu

Jonathan Dieter wrote:

On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 08:49 +0000, Mike C wrote:


Indeed so. Also it is surely the case the for the majority of updates on a day
to day basis the largest fraction of the time needed to complete the updates is
likely to the downloading the update rpms.


Therefore making sure the downloads come from a fast mirror is the most important
factor in getting the overall elapsed time to be as short as possible.

Once the rpms are all in the cache area then the update install is usually quite
quick.




And, of course, there's yum-presto which downloads the *difference*
between the new updates and what's on your system, giving you a saving
of, on average, roughly 80%.

Until the official Fedora repositories are presto-enabled, you have to
make some changes to your .repo files. See
http://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/presto for more information.

Jonathan

Full disclosure: I am the yum-presto maintainer

I was meaning to ask - what is the status of the sole current presto
server? You mentioned in


http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-November/msg00500.html

that there is a 100 GB/month bandwidth limit, and that something would
have to give soon (either help mirroring, or the official repos
including the drpms). The reason is that my father, who is on dialup,
is considering replacing F7 with F8, but he is dependent upon presto to
keep up with the updates, and F8 can be expected to have more of them.
Do you think there's a significant chance that the server could be lost
again?
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:39 AM
Jonathan Dieter
 
Default Fedora and Ubuntu

On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 04:53 -0500, Andre Robatino wrote:
> Jonathan Dieter wrote:
> > And, of course, there's yum-presto which downloads the *difference*
> > between the new updates and what's on your system, giving you a saving
> > of, on average, roughly 80%.
> >
> > Until the official Fedora repositories are presto-enabled, you have to
> > make some changes to your .repo files. See
> > http://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/presto for more information.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > Full disclosure: I am the yum-presto maintainer
> >
> I was meaning to ask - what is the status of the sole current presto
> server? You mentioned in
>
> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-November/msg00500.html
>
> that there is a 100 GB/month bandwidth limit, and that something would
> have to give soon (either help mirroring, or the official repos
> including the drpms). The reason is that my father, who is on dialup,
> is considering replacing F7 with F8, but he is dependent upon presto to
> keep up with the updates, and F8 can be expected to have more of them.
> Do you think there's a significant chance that the server could be lost
> again?

Actually, the November bandwidth used was *down* (25G) from the October
bandwidth used (33G). Some of this is due to the fact that someone else
has taken on creating F8's x86_64 deltarpms, so I no longer have those
downloads coming through. I think the rest might be due to people being
scared off from my announcement on -devel (which wasn't my intention at
all).

I wouldn't worry about the possibility of the server going down. At some
point (hopefully), the Fedora 8 official repositories will be
presto-enabled and you will then be able to get your deltarpms directly
from them. The Fedora 7 official repositories will never be
presto-enabled (at least as far as I understand it).

Jonathan
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Old 11-30-2007, 01:28 PM
Aaron Konstam
 
Default Fedora and Ubuntu

On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 16:57 -0700, Karl Larsen wrote:
> Pup and yum on F7 are a pain. Often when the message is for 10 new
> updates I do it in a terminal. Either way it is quite slow. But it works.
>
> Ubuntu uses apt-get and a GUI thing like Pup but it works much
> better. I have no desire to do it in a terminal. When I set it up the
> first time it took 90 updates. I was amazed how fast it went and zero
> problems. There are several things not Fedora or normal Ubuntu
> applications that I MUST have. On Ubuntu they are all a simple # apt-get
> install and they do all the work bringing in the necessary libs and such.
>
> At this time I can say the Ubuntu update system is very superior to
> Pup and yum used on Fedora. I suggest Fedora look close at Ubuntu and
> see how to get it working here.
>
> Both systems use Gnome and that makes both look VERY similar. A nice
> feature of Ubuntu is that that mount all the Linux systems on boot to
> /mnt and you can then, of course transfer things from the Fedora systems
> to Ubuntu. Or the reverse.
>
> Ubuntu is based on Debian and the place that files go and do are odd
> to a Fedora user. There is no grub.conf and /etc/fstab is a real MESS! I
> am not sure my Fedora /home directory can be used with Ubuntu, but I
> will try just for fun.
>
> Karl
I have both Ubuntu and Fedora installed. The update services are different but in no way
is the Ubuntu system significantly better or faster.
>
> ================================================== ===================== Many pages make a thick book. ================================================== ===================== Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam@sbcglobal.net

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Old 11-30-2007, 01:55 PM
Mike C
 
Default Fedora and Ubuntu

Jonathan Dieter <jdieter <at> gmail.com> writes:

> I wouldn't worry about the possibility of the server going down. At some
> point (hopefully), the Fedora 8 official repositories will be
> presto-enabled and you will then be able to get your deltarpms directly
> from them. The Fedora 7 official repositories will never be
> presto-enabled (at least as far as I understand it).

Can you say why the official repos will "never" be presto-enabled?
For this to be adopted in a widespread manner it would need to have a
reasonably widespread distribution of mirrors including fast ones
available to people across the globe - otherwise if every machine
running Fedora were to start pulling in rpm diff files it could
in principle swamp the single server acting as a source.

The idea sounds in principle like a good way of making large bandwidth
savings. So what is the reason there is resistance to wider adoption
for mirrors?


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Old 11-30-2007, 01:56 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora and Ubuntu

Aaron Konstam wrote:


I have both Ubuntu and Fedora installed. The update services are different but in no way
is the Ubuntu system significantly better or faster.


The big difference in the way it feels is that apt-get caches the
repository info until you tell it to update it, where yum does this slow
step on every operation even if it was just done seconds earlier.


--
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lesmikesell@gmail.com

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Old 11-30-2007, 02:22 PM
"Mikkel L. Ellertson"
 
Default Fedora and Ubuntu

Les Mikesell wrote:
> Aaron Konstam wrote:
>
>> I have both Ubuntu and Fedora installed. The update services are
>> different but in no way
>> is the Ubuntu system significantly better or faster.
>
> The big difference in the way it feels is that apt-get caches the
> repository info until you tell it to update it, where yum does this slow
> step on every operation even if it was just done seconds earlier.
>
Is this what you are talking about?

metadata_expire
Time (in seconds) after which the metadata will expire. So that
if the current metadata downloaded is less than this many seconds
old then yum will not update the metadata against the repository.
If you find that yum is not downloading information on updates as
often as you would like lower the value of this option.

Mikkel
--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!

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Old 11-30-2007, 02:54 PM
Jonathan Dieter
 
Default Fedora and Ubuntu

On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 14:55 +0000, Mike C wrote:
> Jonathan Dieter <jdieter <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
> > I wouldn't worry about the possibility of the server going down. At some
> > point (hopefully), the Fedora 8 official repositories will be
> > presto-enabled and you will then be able to get your deltarpms directly
> > from them. The Fedora 7 official repositories will never be
> > presto-enabled (at least as far as I understand it).
>
> Can you say why the official repos will "never" be presto-enabled?
> For this to be adopted in a widespread manner it would need to have a
> reasonably widespread distribution of mirrors including fast ones
> available to people across the globe - otherwise if every machine
> running Fedora were to start pulling in rpm diff files it could
> in principle swamp the single server acting as a source.
>
> The idea sounds in principle like a good way of making large bandwidth
> savings. So what is the reason there is resistance to wider adoption
> for mirrors?
>
Uh, I said the Fedora *7* repos will never be presto-enabled. It will
probably take a while for the buildsys team to work out how to fit the
deltarpms with the rpms, so I don't think they'll feel it's worth the
effort to get it working with Fedora 7.

I agree 100% with everything else you said.

Jonathan
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:22 PM
David Boles
 
Default Fedora and Ubuntu

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jonathan Dieter wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 08:49 +0000, Mike C wrote:
>> Indeed so. Also it is surely the case the for the majority of updates on a day
>> to day basis the largest fraction of the time needed to complete the updates is
>> likely to the downloading the update rpms.
>>
>> Therefore making sure the downloads come from a fast mirror is the most important
>> factor in getting the overall elapsed time to be as short as possible.
>>
>> Once the rpms are all in the cache area then the update install is usually quite
>> quick.
>>
>
> And, of course, there's yum-presto which downloads the *difference*
> between the new updates and what's on your system, giving you a saving
> of, on average, roughly 80%.
>
> Until the official Fedora repositories are presto-enabled, you have to
> make some changes to your .repo files. See
> http://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/presto for more information.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Full disclosure: I am the yum-presto maintainer


I was actually thinking about your work when I mentioned yum plugins. I
think that it, your work, is a great idea.

- --


David

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Old 11-30-2007, 05:07 PM
"Lamar Owen"
 
Default Fedora and Ubuntu

On Thursday 29 November 2007, Karl Larsen wrote:
> At this time I can say the Ubuntu update system is very superior to
> Pup and yum used on Fedora. I suggest Fedora look close at Ubuntu and
> see how to get it working here.

Having worked with Ubuntu, and done a few 7.04 to 7.10 upgrades through that
GUI, I'll second this. After doing the initial update, a section of the
updater is added, which includes a button to do a version upgrade. No reboot
until the packages are downloaded and installed, then you reboot into the
upgraded system. The Debian systems have for a long time had a smoother
version upgrade mechanism.

Now, I had issues after the reboot, but that was a different deal that was
easily fixed (the video card was set up incorrectly, and X wouldn't start
until reconfigured (which was a very easy task; apt's equivalents
to %pre, %post, %preun, and %postun are much much more powerful than what RPM
gives you)).

The Ubuntu upgrader GUI is quite a bit faster than pup. And synaptic is still
far and away better than pirut or any of the yum frontends. Adept-installer
(under kubuntu this is the default instead of the GTK synaptic) is much more
like pirut, but it is faster.
--
Lamar Owen
Chief Information Officer
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute
1 PARI Drive
Rosman, NC 28772
(828)862-5554
www.pari.edu

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