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Old 06-06-2008, 07:22 AM
g
 
Default Thunderbird

Craig White wrote:

EXPUNGE is IMAP lingo...


cheers for imap and evolution that they agree, as kmail uses a 3rd.


http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2060.html


like internet is full of facts. so is http://www.merriam-webster.com/

really, what diff does it make who uses what, as long as who ever is
using what ever, learns how to do which ever with it. ail...

biggest part of all of this is helping those who have trouble.

some just do not understand 'man', or what happens when you
press <alt>+h as in underlined letter of 'help' in menu line.

all in all, what ever gets mail thru. just think about usps,
and all of other nations of mail services and mail persons.
they have it easy.



--

tc,hago.

g
.

in a free world without fences, who needs gates.

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Old 06-06-2008, 01:57 PM
"Patrick O'Callaghan"
 
Default Thunderbird

On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 23:31 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 01:09 +0000, g wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Craig White wrote:
> > > (file menu), right click on any folder and chose 'compact' or in Account
> > > Settings, you can choose to 'expunge' on exit. Expunge is the normal
> > > lingo for deleting messages that have 'delete flag set on'
> >
> > 'expunge' is 'lingo' used in evolution.
> >
> > in thunderbird, under users account;
> >
> > server settings | server settings [] empty on exit
> >
> > will clean 'trash' file.
> ----
> EXPUNGE is IMAP lingo...
>
> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2060.html
>
> Thunderbird chooses not to call it by it's real terminology - perhaps
> out of some notion that it is more user friendly to call it by another
> name...I think that it is a mistake but hey, I'm only one opinion.

I have to agree with you. I find TB's terminology confusing since the
poor documentation makes it hard to associate with more standard usage.
It's absurd that one should have to do black-box testing to determine
under what circumstances you do Empty Trash to get an Expunge, or when
it's meaningful to Compact (answer: only with mbox folders), or if
Compact also Expunges (IIRC it's not documented), or what exactly
happens when you do a Delete (answer: it depends on a preference
setting, but the meaning of the various alternatives is not clear).

All of this is a consequence of a laudable attempt to make things
understandable to the layman and to use a uniform model for a variety of
possible mail backends. I have no quarrel with that, but I do wish there
was a reference document so those who want to know could find out.

(Note that Evolution is also somewhat deficient in this sense, but at
least it addresses this kind of thing in a FAQ).

poc

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Old 06-06-2008, 02:22 PM
Craig White
 
Default Thunderbird

On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 09:27 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 23:31 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> > On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 01:09 +0000, g wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > Craig White wrote:
> > > > (file menu), right click on any folder and chose 'compact' or in Account
> > > > Settings, you can choose to 'expunge' on exit. Expunge is the normal
> > > > lingo for deleting messages that have 'delete flag set on'
> > >
> > > 'expunge' is 'lingo' used in evolution.
> > >
> > > in thunderbird, under users account;
> > >
> > > server settings | server settings [] empty on exit
> > >
> > > will clean 'trash' file.
> > ----
> > EXPUNGE is IMAP lingo...
> >
> > http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2060.html
> >
> > Thunderbird chooses not to call it by it's real terminology - perhaps
> > out of some notion that it is more user friendly to call it by another
> > name...I think that it is a mistake but hey, I'm only one opinion.
>
> I have to agree with you. I find TB's terminology confusing since the
> poor documentation makes it hard to associate with more standard usage.
> It's absurd that one should have to do black-box testing to determine
> under what circumstances you do Empty Trash to get an Expunge, or when
> it's meaningful to Compact (answer: only with mbox folders), or if
> Compact also Expunges (IIRC it's not documented), or what exactly
> happens when you do a Delete (answer: it depends on a preference
> setting, but the meaning of the various alternatives is not clear).
>
> All of this is a consequence of a laudable attempt to make things
> understandable to the layman and to use a uniform model for a variety of
> possible mail backends. I have no quarrel with that, but I do wish there
> was a reference document so those who want to know could find out.
>
> (Note that Evolution is also somewhat deficient in this sense, but at
> least it addresses this kind of thing in a FAQ).
----
I see both sides because I am a system administrator and a user.

As a system administrator...I really don't like default configuration of
IMAP client applications that 'MOVE' mail into a 'Deleted Items' or
'Trash' folder when the user clicks delete. I find many users never
'empty the trash' (or EXPUNGE) and the mail just sits there. I actually
have instituted a cyrus-imapd rule that runs during the wee hours and
executes a 'purge' on any e-mail on all users folders that has the
'DELETE' flag set and is over 30 days old. Still, it just ups the load
on the server (Moving mail from one folder to another folder). If the
DELETE flag is set and the user can view/hide 'deleted' e-mails...that
should be good enough.

As a user...if I delete e-mails, I actually want them to be deleted. I
love how Evolution will 'purge deleted e-mail' on exit (from all
folders). Thunderbird has to be instructed to do that as it is not the
default setting. I don't think Thunderbird default settings are
appropriate for IMAP users at all but at least they can be tweaked.

The issue of lingo and e-mail is always gonna be a problem because there
are so many mail applications and each one has it's own lingo and it's
own default behaviors which are subtly different. It just leads to
confused users and deleted mail that can hang around forever.

Craig

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Old 06-06-2008, 02:48 PM
"Patrick O'Callaghan"
 
Default Thunderbird

On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 07:22 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 09:27 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 23:31 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> > > On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 01:09 +0000, g wrote:
> > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > > Hash: SHA1
> > > >
> > > > Craig White wrote:
> > > > > (file menu), right click on any folder and chose 'compact' or in Account
> > > > > Settings, you can choose to 'expunge' on exit. Expunge is the normal
> > > > > lingo for deleting messages that have 'delete flag set on'
> > > >
> > > > 'expunge' is 'lingo' used in evolution.
> > > >
> > > > in thunderbird, under users account;
> > > >
> > > > server settings | server settings [] empty on exit
> > > >
> > > > will clean 'trash' file.
> > > ----
> > > EXPUNGE is IMAP lingo...
> > >
> > > http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2060.html
> > >
> > > Thunderbird chooses not to call it by it's real terminology - perhaps
> > > out of some notion that it is more user friendly to call it by another
> > > name...I think that it is a mistake but hey, I'm only one opinion.
> >
> > I have to agree with you. I find TB's terminology confusing since the
> > poor documentation makes it hard to associate with more standard usage.
> > It's absurd that one should have to do black-box testing to determine
> > under what circumstances you do Empty Trash to get an Expunge, or when
> > it's meaningful to Compact (answer: only with mbox folders), or if
> > Compact also Expunges (IIRC it's not documented), or what exactly
> > happens when you do a Delete (answer: it depends on a preference
> > setting, but the meaning of the various alternatives is not clear).
> >
> > All of this is a consequence of a laudable attempt to make things
> > understandable to the layman and to use a uniform model for a variety of
> > possible mail backends. I have no quarrel with that, but I do wish there
> > was a reference document so those who want to know could find out.
> >
> > (Note that Evolution is also somewhat deficient in this sense, but at
> > least it addresses this kind of thing in a FAQ).
> ----
> I see both sides because I am a system administrator and a user.
>
> As a system administrator...I really don't like default configuration of
> IMAP client applications that 'MOVE' mail into a 'Deleted Items' or
> 'Trash' folder when the user clicks delete. I find many users never
> 'empty the trash' (or EXPUNGE) and the mail just sits there. I actually
> have instituted a cyrus-imapd rule that runs during the wee hours and
> executes a 'purge' on any e-mail on all users folders that has the
> 'DELETE' flag set and is over 30 days old.

Been there, done exactly that :-)

> Still, it just ups the load
> on the server (Moving mail from one folder to another folder). If the
> DELETE flag is set and the user can view/hide 'deleted' e-mails...that
> should be good enough.

Quite right, and that's how Evo works. The problem is a lot of baggage
from other email clients that don't do it that way (e.g. Mac Mail.app).

As an aside: the "move the mail to a Deleted folder" method works as
long as you don't have quotas. If you have quotas you can get a
situation where the user can't delete mail to lower his usage because
doing so means making a copy, which would put him over quota. Recall
that IMAP doesn't have a "move" operation, just "copy and then delete",
and of course "delete" means "mark deleted for a later expunge", which
is actually very clever because undeleting leaves the message back where
it was without needing to remember any additional state. But I
digress ...

> As a user...if I delete e-mails, I actually want them to be deleted. I
> love how Evolution will 'purge deleted e-mail' on exit (from all
> folders). Thunderbird has to be instructed to do that as it is not the
> default setting.

IIRC it's not the default in Evo either, you have to set it. Or maybe I
just unset it years ago and don't remember.

> I don't think Thunderbird default settings are
> appropriate for IMAP users at all but at least they can be tweaked.
>
> The issue of lingo and e-mail is always gonna be a problem because there
> are so many mail applications and each one has it's own lingo and it's
> own default behaviors which are subtly different. It just leads to
> confused users and deleted mail that can hang around forever.

Amen to that. There isn't even a standard for naming the "Sent Mail"
folder, so you end up having to tweak each client. Great fun when some
of your users use one language and some another, and their individual
locales determine what the folders are going to be called.

poc

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Old 06-06-2008, 02:52 PM
Anne Wilson
 
Default Thunderbird

On Friday 06 June 2008 15:22:03 Craig White wrote:
> .I really don't like default configuration of
> IMAP client applications that 'MOVE' mail into a 'Deleted Items' or
> 'Trash' folder when the user clicks delete. I find many users never
> 'empty the trash' (or EXPUNGE) and the mail just sits there.

First, I make sure that deletion goes to the IMAP server's trash, not to
local. Then I put a 30 day expiry in kmail on all messages over 30 days but
not flagged Important. That moves them to the server's Trash. I have a 60
day expiry on the trash. If I haven't needed it by then I'm pretty certain I
won't need it at all :-)

There have been times, just a few, when I couldn't find the message I wanted
to refer back to, and have found them in the Trash folder. Belt,
braces/suspenders and a bit of string :-)

Anne
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Old 06-06-2008, 03:04 PM
Craig White
 
Default Thunderbird

On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 15:52 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
> On Friday 06 June 2008 15:22:03 Craig White wrote:
> > .I really don't like default configuration of
> > IMAP client applications that 'MOVE' mail into a 'Deleted Items' or
> > 'Trash' folder when the user clicks delete. I find many users never
> > 'empty the trash' (or EXPUNGE) and the mail just sits there.
>
> First, I make sure that deletion goes to the IMAP server's trash, not to
> local. Then I put a 30 day expiry in kmail on all messages over 30 days but
> not flagged Important. That moves them to the server's Trash. I have a 60
> day expiry on the trash. If I haven't needed it by then I'm pretty certain I
> won't need it at all :-)
>
> There have been times, just a few, when I couldn't find the message I wanted
> to refer back to, and have found them in the Trash folder. Belt,
> braces/suspenders and a bit of string :-)
----
The issue isn't knowledgeable users like yourself but rather the
opposite...un-knowledgeable users.

That said...you are opting for your client application (Kmail) to manage
things that a more robust IMAP server like cyrus-imapd can handle by
itself and when you have a lot of users, it's too painful to get them to
manage their settings when you can handle things like this on an
administrator level.

I have one customer with a fair number of users in the office...all of
whom use IMAP except for the owner who insists on using POP3 and has
several thousand deleted e-mails in his 'Trash' sort of just in
case...It's a real PITA because he's using Entourage (Macintosh) and
like Outlook...it stores everything in one file and when it crosses the
4 Gb file size...it implodes. People do strange things with e-mail.

Craig

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Old 06-06-2008, 03:30 PM
"Patrick O'Callaghan"
 
Default Thunderbird

On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 08:04 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 15:52 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
> > On Friday 06 June 2008 15:22:03 Craig White wrote:
> > > .I really don't like default configuration of
> > > IMAP client applications that 'MOVE' mail into a 'Deleted Items' or
> > > 'Trash' folder when the user clicks delete. I find many users never
> > > 'empty the trash' (or EXPUNGE) and the mail just sits there.
> >
> > First, I make sure that deletion goes to the IMAP server's trash, not to
> > local. Then I put a 30 day expiry in kmail on all messages over 30 days but
> > not flagged Important. That moves them to the server's Trash. I have a 60
> > day expiry on the trash. If I haven't needed it by then I'm pretty certain I
> > won't need it at all :-)
> >
> > There have been times, just a few, when I couldn't find the message I wanted
> > to refer back to, and have found them in the Trash folder. Belt,
> > braces/suspenders and a bit of string :-)
> ----
> The issue isn't knowledgeable users like yourself but rather the
> opposite...un-knowledgeable users.
>
> That said...you are opting for your client application (Kmail) to manage
> things that a more robust IMAP server like cyrus-imapd can handle by
> itself and when you have a lot of users, it's too painful to get them to
> manage their settings when you can handle things like this on an
> administrator level.
>
> I have one customer with a fair number of users in the office...all of
> whom use IMAP except for the owner who insists on using POP3 and has
> several thousand deleted e-mails in his 'Trash' sort of just in
> case...It's a real PITA because he's using Entourage (Macintosh) and
> like Outlook...it stores everything in one file and when it crosses the
> 4 Gb file size...it implodes. People do strange things with e-mail.

Then there are the users who only check their mail once in a blue moon
and whose mailboxes fill up, but you can't delete anything because who
knows what it is? And then they complain that mail isn't arriving
(because they're over quota). We actually had to implement a patch to
our webmail (IMP) to allow them to delete -- really delete, not just
mark -- everything in their Inbox that arrived before a specific date.
As you say, people have strange expectations of email. It would be fun
to collect war stories of this sort :-)

poc

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Old 06-06-2008, 04:29 PM
"Bill Crawford"
 
Default Thunderbird

2008/6/6 Patrick O'Callaghan <pocallaghan@gmail.com>:

> As you say, people have strange expectations of email. It would be fun
> to collect war stories of this sort :-)

news:alt.sysadmin.recovery might be fun for that sort of thing

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Old 02-03-2010, 08:01 PM
"Jorge Rivera"
 
Default thunderbird

>*** I don’t know how install this
program on fedora system


Please help me


*


Thank`s a lot



*


SALUDOS


*


*


JORGE J. RIVERA G.


*










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Old 02-03-2010, 08:30 PM
Athmane Madjoudj
 
Default thunderbird

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Jorge Rivera <jrivera@tpmex.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >*** I don’t know how install this program on fedora system
>
> Please help me
>
>
>
> Thank`s a lot
>
>
>
> SALUDOS
>
>
>
>
>
> JORGE J. RIVERA G.
>
>
>
> --
> users mailing list
> users@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
>

Run:

System > Administration > Add/Remove Software

and search for Thunderbird and install it.


- OR -

open a terminal:

su
yum install thunderbird



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