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Old 04-23-2008, 05:14 PM
Todd Zullinger
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Rex Dieter wrote:
> I humbly disagree. There's a right and a wrong way to do things,
> and I'm glad fedora chooses to take the higher-ground.

I'll drink to that, Rex.

It reminds me of a George Bernard Shaw quote:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all
progress depends on the unreasonable man."

If no one insisted on getting things upstreamed (modules, patches,
etc), the upstream projects would not be as good as they are today.
Fedora's upstream mantra is a damn good thing IMO.

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Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Old 04-23-2008, 05:37 PM
"Heitor Moraes"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

What kind of kid you are?
Buying a Company, does not mean you create their softwares!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarDivision

I used that a loot with (RedHat based) Conectiva Linux.


On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
> Francis Earl wrote:
> > >
> > It's funny, because if you take away OpenOffice.org/OpenSolaris they're
> > really done very little,
> >
> Take away OOo and no one would be using Linux on the desktop at all.
>
> > and no distros actually use Sun's OpenOffice,
> > they use Novells (go-oo.org) because Sun stiffles development too much.
>
> That wouldn't exist without Sun either, and without Sun stifling anything.

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Old 04-23-2008, 05:39 PM
Robin Laing
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Alastair Neil wrote:



On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com
<mailto:wayward4now@gmail.com>> wrote:


On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 13:05 -0700, Francis Earl wrote:
> That article ENTIRELY got it wrong. All RedHat said was they won't be
> pushing Linux on the consumer desktop for some time. They make their
> money from servers, and they are a company, so it's not in their best
> interest to have a product they aren't profiting from.

OTOH, as I've said for years, desktops beget servers. Who in their right
mind would have ever thought that Windows would become a choice as a
server platform?? The Windows3.1 users got used to the desktop and it
rolled from there. Disregard the desktops of college entry level users,
and they'll migrate with their favorite platform and comfort level to
using it to admin their future server needs. What's not to understand in
this? RedHat could very well be blowing their lead and not seeing it
until too late in the game to recover.

We (RH) used to have college programs all over the place ...usually
promoted as install fests at Universities. I haven't heard of one in the
press for years now. Servers are where the money is, no doubt. But, it
is better IMHO to have the future admins loyalty through the user
desktop by catering to them. I spent years in Marketing. I learned to
never EVER disregard the little guy. He might become the next purchasing
agent and/or decision maker. My two cents, Ric


An where has it got Microsoft? 20 years and countless billions invested
in marketing and they still manage only 30% of the server market.


True, Novel lost out to WinNT in part because users got used to the
Windows interface and wanted a similar experience for managing their
servers. I refuse to believe that there is such a gulf between Ubuntu
and RHEL in functionality that users would have the same visceral
reaction and defect in droves from RH to Ubuntu - because they love
brown backgrounds on their Gnome desktops. Red Hat has focused its
desktop efforts on crafting a distribution that is best in class for
administering servers, just as SUSE is crafting a business productivity
centric desktop distribution with an emphasis on Windows
interoperability (thus Evolution, Mono/silverlight and "Don't Sue us
please Bill!" agreements). These distros have carved their own niches,
I don't as yet know what Ubuntu's niche is - windows malcontents? home
tinkerers/hobyists? Small Home Office? You could argue that this is
exactly the way linux started and who knows in 10 or 20 years maybe they
will have a significant enterprise share, however, I doubt it. Being
able to play MP3's out of the box rarely makes it onto a enterprise
server deployment specification.






This is an interesting comment. Just a few days ago, I read an article
about Microsoft pointing out companies that have moved from Linux
servers due to the desktop support as well as gui management tools. Of
course I hear that they are now adding more command line tools for
administration due to demand.


I see two aspects to this part of the debate.

If people use Linux at work, they will be more likely to use it at home.
They will use what they are familiar with. Most computer users are
not that intelligent to using their computers. Some cannot even figure
out how to update their computers.


As for MS not getting a larger server share, this is a strange aspect.
Part of the issue in the past has been many admins that new Unix found
it easier to move to Linux from Solaris or other versions. The share of
Windows servers from what I am reading is increasing. I see this as a
result of the new point and click mentality. If you cannot click it,
then you cannot manage it. Damn kids today.


FWIW, this thread has brought out many of the comments that have been
stated in this article.


Did Canonical Just Get Punked by Red Hat and Novell?
http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2008/04/did-canonical-j.html

Basically, the announcements are to support the server sales.

I did like this comment though.

"Curiously, very little attention was paid to Ron Hovespian's comments
on Novell's similar plans, made before Red Hat's. If I were Novell, I
would take this as a bad sign. Not only did the mainstream media not
pick up on Novell's news, but even most of the hard-line Linux
blogosphere wrote them off with nary so much as a "meh" And if you can't
get those folks mad, you must be doing something wrong! "


From the people that I know, the reason to move from Fedora is the
upgrade path being easier. Longer support is appreciated. Some of
these people are also old time Solaris users as well.


I will stick with Fedora as long as I can get third party application
that me and my family use. If they are only available on Ubuntu, then I
will have to move.


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Old 04-23-2008, 05:42 PM
Zoltan Boszormenyi
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Heitor Moraes írta:

What kind of kid you are?
Buying a Company, does not mean you create their softwares!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarDivision

I used that a loot with (RedHat based) Conectiva Linux.



"Loot"? Hah, so you pirated it... :-)


On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:


Francis Earl wrote:


It's funny, because if you take away OpenOffice.org/OpenSolaris they're
really done very little,



Take away OOo and no one would be using Linux on the desktop at all.



and no distros actually use Sun's OpenOffice,
they use Novells (go-oo.org) because Sun stiffles development too much.


That wouldn't exist without Sun either, and without Sun stifling anything.








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Old 04-23-2008, 05:43 PM
Robin Laing
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Todd Zullinger wrote:

Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Fair point. However the precise nature of the difference between
Fedora and Ubuntu in legal terms is not entirely clear to me. On
both systems the user can install propietary codecs, and on both
systems there are clear warnings that this is "at your own risk" and
the proprietary stuff is not installed by default. The practical
difference from the user's point of view is that Ubuntu tells you
how to get it and Fedora doesn't (the fact that Ubuntu actually
hosts some of it is to my mind a red herring; they could just as
easily provide pointers to 3rd-party sites if they were worried
about keeping legal distance, so apparently they aren't worried
about it).


It is not so simple. Even if you don't host the infringing code, you
can run into problems pointing people to it. See below.


It may also be relevant that Red Hat is a US company, and Canonical
isn't, and that US law allows software patents, and many other
countries don't (yet), but IANAL of course.


Yes, that is quite relevant. The problem with Fedora telling users
how to install things that violate US law is that it is considered
"contributory infringement" (google that .




Now if the Fedora had major third party repositories in yum to be used
for "other applications" that wouldn't be illegal. But giving exact
instructions would be.


This is related to sites pointing to DeCSS if I am correct.

How about links to other web sites that provide information on Fedora
and using it? Would that be illegal?


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Old 04-23-2008, 05:50 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Robin Laing wrote:



How about links to other web sites that provide information on Fedora
and using it? Would that be illegal?


From Legal, no as long as you don't tell in specific details what you
can find on those websites (ie) you can point to a website that hosts a
repository as long as you don't tell what's there and might have to
remove the link in case of a legal notice.


http://lwn.net/Articles/257559/

Rahul

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Old 04-23-2008, 05:59 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Heitor Moraes wrote:

What kind of kid you are?
Buying a Company, does not mean you create their softwares!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarDivision

I used that a loot with (RedHat based) Conectiva Linux.


On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:

Francis Earl wrote:

It's funny, because if you take away OpenOffice.org/OpenSolaris they're
really done very little,


Take away OOo and no one would be using Linux on the desktop at all.


and no distros actually use Sun's OpenOffice,
they use Novells (go-oo.org) because Sun stiffles development too much.

That wouldn't exist without Sun either, and without Sun stifling anything.




OK, exist was the wrong word, but it wouldn't exist in the fedora
distribution without Sun's contribution and it wouldn't exist on my
machines.


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Old 04-23-2008, 06:04 PM
Todd Zullinger
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Robin Laing wrote:
> Now if the Fedora had major third party repositories in yum to be
> used for "other applications" that wouldn't be illegal. But giving
> exact instructions would be.
>
> This is related to sites pointing to DeCSS if I am correct.
>
> How about links to other web sites that provide information on
> Fedora and using it? Would that be illegal?

I read on one of the fedora lists a few months back that Red Hat's
legal department said there was some legal room for Fedora to mention
Livna to users without running afoul of silly US laws. But I do not
know fully what that method was nor what the became of that with
regards to adding references to any of the Fedora documentation or
wiki.

Perhaps someone that knows the details can elaborate? (Rahul?

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Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Learn from the mistakes of others--you can never live long enough to
make them all yourself.
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Old 04-23-2008, 06:41 PM
"Heitor Moraes"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

No Kid-2!

At that time, it was free for personal use.

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Zoltan Boszormenyi <zboszor@freemail.hu> wrote:
> Heitor Moraes írta:
>
>
> > What kind of kid you are?
> > Buying a Company, does not mean you create their softwares!
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarDivision
> >
> > I used that a loot with (RedHat based) Conectiva Linux.
> >
> >
>
> "Loot"? Hah, so you pirated it... :-)
>
>

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Old 04-23-2008, 06:43 PM
"Heitor Moraes"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

It's impossible to say that.
We will never know.

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Heitor Moraes wrote:
>
> > What kind of kid you are?
> > Buying a Company, does not mean you create their softwares!
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarDivision
> >
> > I used that a loot with (RedHat based) Conectiva Linux.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Francis Earl wrote:
> > >
> > > > It's funny, because if you take away OpenOffice.org/OpenSolaris
> they're
> > > > really done very little,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Take away OOo and no one would be using Linux on the desktop at all.
> > >
> > >
> > > > and no distros actually use Sun's OpenOffice,
> > > > they use Novells (go-oo.org) because Sun stiffles development too
> much.
> > > >
> > > That wouldn't exist without Sun either, and without Sun stifling
> anything.
> > >
> >
> >
>
> OK, exist was the wrong word, but it wouldn't exist in the fedora
> distribution without Sun's contribution and it wouldn't exist on my
> machines.
>
> --
> Les Mikesell
> lesmikesell@gmail.com
>
>
> --
> fedora-list mailing list
> fedora-list@redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>

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