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Old 05-01-2008, 01:58 PM
"David G. Mackay"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 19:33 -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
> As Edward R. Morrow said, when accused by Senator Joe McCarthy as being
> a "fellow traveler" when he publicly criticized the Senator and the
> method and scope of his hearings,
>
> "Do not confuse my dissent with disloyalty."

I'll really worry if FESCO splits off an "UnFedora Activities
Committee".

> While there may be as many better ways to improve Fedora as there are
> users, again dissent is not disloyalty. All of us merely grope for
> commonality between the needs of the communities of users and the
> developers of the Fedora Project, while respecting the traditions and
> focus of the group, as a whole. Having no small measure of brains
> amongst us, provides a "spirited" debate. Thesis vs Antithesis equals
> Synthesis.

Oh, I dunno. The path to perfection, for some people, is the ability to
forget their own shortcomings. I suppose criticizing them is a form of
pseudo-hubris. Fortunately, that doesn't apply to most of the people
here.

> To those with small measures of brains, the killfile is effective. I am
> no longer afflicted by the top-posters. Ric

Annoying != Stupid. You, of course, are free to decide how to deal with
nuisances.

Dave


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Old 05-01-2008, 03:03 PM
"David G. Mackay"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Thu, 2008-05-01 at 11:47 +0930, Tim wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-05-01 at 11:35 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
> > But then, this is what the heart of this whole thread has been about:
> > legalities of linking different licenses. And Fedora and a minority of
> > users has taken a stand on one side of this issue. Will they
> > condescend to a level where an agreement can be reached?
>
> Sure. The consensus if you want to do something illegal, use something
> else. There's nothing stopping you from doing so, and there's plenty of
> "something elses" for you to use.

When the laws are inane enough, people will pretty much ignore them,
short of Draconian enforcement measures. I regard the DMCA as some of
the finest legislation that money can buy.

The real fix is to change the laws, as someone already pointed out in
this thread. That might not be as impossible as it first appears. Just
a short time ago, there was a real danger that internet radio stations
would be shut down en masse by new royalties imposed by SoundExchange.
There was enough noise made by enough people that congress intervened.
Not, mind you, that they did more than the bare minimum, but they did
intervene. The real trick here is to get enough people involved to
overcome the influence of the various lobbyists.

Dave


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Old 05-01-2008, 03:10 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

David G. Mackay wrote:



When the laws are inane enough, people will pretty much ignore them,
short of Draconian enforcement measures. I regard the DMCA as some of
the finest legislation that money can buy.


Of course but ignoring it while it exists isn't a option.


The real fix is to change the laws, as someone already pointed out in
this thread. That might not be as impossible as it first appears.


Sure.

http://www.press.redhat.com/2008/04/07/red-hat-asks-federal-court-to-limit-patents-on-software/

Rahul

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Old 05-01-2008, 03:29 PM
Robin Laing
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Tim wrote:

On Thu, 2008-05-01 at 11:50 +1000, Da Rock wrote:

I don't agree with that- flash is well overused on the web by web
developers too lazy to do a job the right way so that everyone can use
it. That said, if ogg is supposed to be OSS, then that would meant
that windows users could view it, and I would think that Mac users
could too- so there you have it: a better solution. Just requires a
little more thought.


Though that's putting the shoe on the other foot. Now, it's the hapless
Windows user, who typically would have no idea how to add ogg support to
their box, who's got to figure out how to view something.

One reason that you won't get widespread support for open systems, like
ogg, is that those who develop such things don't want to support digital
rights management (i.e. letting outsiders control what the user can and
cannot do), and content suppliers typically want to control what you can
do (e.g. they stream audio/video so that you can watch it, but you can't
save it - which makes dial-up viewing next to impossible). Content
suppliers will use something else that suits them, and damn the users.

Whilst there are restrictions on Flash, and hazards with using it, it
will have the largest user base, already, for being able to simply view
something non-static in the web browser.

I just had a very quick search around, and I couldn't see a way to add
ogg viewing to MSIE (e.g. theora). Sure, I can add things so that I can
play ogg vorbis audio files in a player, but not view embedded content.
And embedded content is what most suppliers want to use.

Theora would need quite a bit of improvement, too. All of the ogg
theora videos that I have seen have looked really crappy video quality.



This may be solved by Adobe's announcement to move to an open model for
SWF, FLV/F4V specifications.


Adobe Open Screen Project
http://www.adobe.com/openscreenproject/

Some big name media companies involved and this could be a series threat
to anything MS is doing with silverlight and proprietary protocols.


Interesting news in my opinion.

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Old 05-01-2008, 04:28 PM
"max bianco"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

> >
> >
> > Yeah. Kind of like that. There are several 'same
> > threads' that rise from the
> > ashes at release time, float for a while, and, as
> > interest wanes, eventually
> > die out. Only to rise again next release. ;-)
> >
> All it takes is a small spark and the cycle begins
> again. Then it dies out, and comes back again. Kind
> of like Haley's Comet which crosses Earth's path every
> 76 years. These threads come back every so often.
> They are like cyclic groups in Abstract Algebra.
>
> Many pros/Many cons. Nobody wins
>
Do these threads get bigger or smaller when they recycle?


Max

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Old 05-01-2008, 08:31 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 10:29:48 -0500,
"David G. Mackay" <mackay_d@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 09:37 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> >
> > Do you think QA happens by magic? If there are features you really want to
> > see working then you can make a difference by participating in rawhide.
>
> I am, thank you. That's how I know that NetworkManager is scheduled to

Thanks for your testing! No one has the time to test everything and the
more people helping the better. I incorrectly assumed you came in late and
were complaining about things not working.
>
> > > Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of great things about Fedora, but
> > > it's certainly not above a certain amount of criticism. It's seemed, at
> > > times that this thread would have been more aptly named, "Fedora, love
> > > it or leave it!".
> >
> > That might actually be an appropiate phrase for Fedora. If there isn't
> > something you love about Fedora, it probably isn't the right distribution
> > for you.
>
> That phrase is a twist on an Americanism, i. e., "America, love it or

I'm an American who was actually alive (though in grade school) when it was
a popular phrase and I know what it means in that context. That is why I
thought it was interesting that I felt it applied to Fedora although with
a different meaning. (i.e. There is enough pain with using Fedora that you
really need to love something about it to justify putting up with it.)

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Old 05-01-2008, 08:56 PM
"David G. Mackay"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Thu, 2008-05-01 at 20:40 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> David G. Mackay wrote:
>
> >
> > When the laws are inane enough, people will pretty much ignore them,
> > short of Draconian enforcement measures. I regard the DMCA as some of
> > the finest legislation that money can buy.
>
> Of course but ignoring it while it exists isn't a option.

It's not for Redhat, because the enforcement against them would be
severe. I'd venture to guess that millions of individuals are ignoring
it, in spite of spamigation (nifty term, that, I wish I could remember
who coined it) by the RIAA, and others.

> > The real fix is to change the laws, as someone already pointed out in
> > this thread. That might not be as impossible as it first appears.
>
> Sure.
>
> http://www.press.redhat.com/2008/04/07/red-hat-asks-federal-court-to-limit-patents-on-software/

Thanks for the link. What we really need is a public outcry, which
would be very difficult to generate. We'd need to have someone do
something like making them listen to commercial radio after they've
gotten used to internet radio, apparently.

Dave


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Old 05-01-2008, 09:01 PM
David Boles
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Antonio Olivares wrote:

--- David Boles <dgboles@gmail.com> wrote:


Ric Moore wrote:

On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 16:53 -0400, David Boles

wrote:

Ed Greshko wrote:

max bianco wrote:

So life is pointless?

Life is not....

But this "discussion" is...

I recall that 'it', this discussion, starts just
before a release and

continues for weeks. Then it dies only to be
resurrected again with the coming

of the next release. ;-)

Software Easter, huh? When the dead are

resurrected in Linus and born

anew? <chuckles> Ric


Yeah. Kind of like that. There are several 'same
threads' that rise from the
ashes at release time, float for a while, and, as
interest wanes, eventually
die out. Only to rise again next release. ;-)



All it takes is a small spark and the cycle begins
again. Then it dies out, and comes back again. Kind
of like Haley's Comet which crosses Earth's path every
76 years. These threads come back every so often.
They are like cyclic groups in Abstract Algebra.

Many pros/Many cons. Nobody wins


Regards,

Antonio



Same people. Same pro comments. Same anti comments. back and forth. On and on.
And nothing changes.


Well some things do. My filters. ;-)

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Old 05-01-2008, 09:03 PM
David Boles
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

max bianco wrote:

>
>
> Yeah. Kind of like that. There are several 'same
> threads' that rise from the
> ashes at release time, float for a while, and, as
> interest wanes, eventually
> die out. Only to rise again next release. ;-)
>
All it takes is a small spark and the cycle begins
again. Then it dies out, and comes back again. Kind
of like Haley's Comet which crosses Earth's path every
76 years. These threads come back every so often.
They are like cyclic groups in Abstract Algebra.

Many pros/Many cons. Nobody wins


Do these threads get bigger or smaller when they recycle?



Depends I think. On just how many users *really* did switch to Ubuntu. ;-)

Wait for the mp3 and CD/DVD codecs stuff to start. They last for weeks.
Sometimes with the same people on different threads about that same subject(s).


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Old 05-02-2008, 11:01 AM
"David G. Mackay"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Thu, 2008-05-01 at 15:31 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> > > Do you think QA happens by magic? If there are features you really want to
> > > see working then you can make a difference by participating in rawhide.
> >
> > I am, thank you. That's how I know that NetworkManager is scheduled to
>
> Thanks for your testing! No one has the time to test everything and the
> more people helping the better. I incorrectly assumed you came in late and
> were complaining about things not working.

I expect things to be broken in rawhide. What I don't expect is for
things that are still not working in rawhide to be pushed out into a
release without a fairly easy way to work around its presence. How many
Fedora users would there be today if the first couple of releases with
selinux hadn't been able to disable selinux?


> > That phrase is a twist on an Americanism, i. e., "America, love it or
>
> I'm an American who was actually alive (though in grade school) when it was
> a popular phrase and I know what it means in that context. That is why I
> thought it was interesting that I felt it applied to Fedora although with
> a different meaning. (i.e. There is enough pain with using Fedora that you
> really need to love something about it to justify putting up with it.)

Sorry. I assumed (and got bitten once again by doing so) by your
country designation on your email that you weren't. Foolish me.

Dave


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