FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Redhat > Fedora User

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 04-30-2008, 11:33 PM
Ric Moore
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 12:46 -0500, David G. Mackay wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 15:25 +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > supporters over the past couple of years. For me personally, the #2 issue is system
> > > stability. In their quest to be bleeding edge or whatever you want call it, I think we
> > > have sacrificed way too much in reliability and stability.
> >
> > That is a bit like joing the army and saying "I think we should be
> > pacifists". Even if you are right, the purpose and intent of the
> > organisation is to deliver something you apparently don't want.
>
> I would argue that it's more like joining the army and having them send
> you to the front line with untested, or even known defective weaponry.
> Yes, Fedora is designed to be cutting edge, but that doesn't mean that
> decent QA should just go out the window.
>
> Then, we have the examples of putting stuff into releases that is known
> to be buggy, like the firewire stack. It also looks like they're doing
> the same thing with NetworkManager in F9. The theory that things will
> mature faster if we force people to test them would be more viable if
> the recent bug triage hadn't proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that a
> huge number of bug reports are simply ignored.
>
> Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of great things about Fedora, but
> it's certainly not above a certain amount of criticism. It's seemed, at
> times that this thread would have been more aptly named, "Fedora, love
> it or leave it!".

As Edward R. Morrow said, when accused by Senator Joe McCarthy as being
a "fellow traveler" when he publicly criticized the Senator and the
method and scope of his hearings,

"Do not confuse my dissent with disloyalty."

While there may be as many better ways to improve Fedora as there are
users, again dissent is not disloyalty. All of us merely grope for
commonality between the needs of the communities of users and the
developers of the Fedora Project, while respecting the traditions and
focus of the group, as a whole. Having no small measure of brains
amongst us, provides a "spirited" debate. Thesis vs Antithesis equals
Synthesis.

To those with small measures of brains, the killfile is effective. I am
no longer afflicted by the top-posters. Ric


--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-30-2008, 11:38 PM
Alan Cox
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

> By the same token they shouldn't be actively making it difficult either.
> There is a balance to be struck here- both sides of this take away
> freedom from the user to choose and put in place what they want. In this
> case Fedora and non-free software are at extremes. A lot of distros are
> finding (or at least trying to) the very fine balance in between.

Fedora cannot (as a US organisation) point an end user at a repository
for free but US patent violating material. Merely providing a link is an
offence and there is caselaw to prove that (the infamous 2600 DVD case).

There is a common misconception that the US has some kind of "freedom of
speech" that means you can say or point at anything. This is not the
case. The US has freedom of _political speech_ so the right of Fedora and
Red Hat to say "this is stupid" is protected, the right to provide the
link is not.

The other distributions shipping patent encumbered decoders are generally
small, and/or non US based so not worth targetting with lawsuits or
difficult to reach anyway as they avoid trading in the US directly and
live in tax havens.

Codecbuddy is about the best we can legally do right now.

Alan


--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-30-2008, 11:39 PM
Da Rock
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sun, 2008-04-27 at 11:44 -0700, Antonio Olivares wrote:
> --- Francis Earl <lunitik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Apparently some of the MP3 patents are supposedly
> > > dying out, but not so soon
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.tunequest.org/a-big-list-of-mp3-patents/20070226/
> >
> > I was under the impression they were expiring around
> > 2010, thank you for
> > that link. The big one there is Alcatel-Lucent as
> > they are the guys
> > really throwing their muscle around.
> >
> > > As for the apple Ipod, and others they can get
> > hacked
> > > and unpaid music can be placed onto them. I have
> > some
> > > students that are very bright in this area, they
> > put
> > > music onto cell phones without paying for the
> > music.
> > > They are sharp with computers and electronics but
> > ask
> > > them about academics and they do not answer. They
> > do
> > > need to be dissapointed with Apple as they do not
> > care
> > > what they do, they know that someone, somewhere is
> > > working to ensure that they can do other things
> > that
> > > Apple did not want them to do.
> >
> > While such things are always possible, it doesn't
> > make it a good thing.
> > You can actually get your iPod working on your Linux
> > box though, it is
> > the codecs and the related copyrights that are bad.
> > Just because your
> > students get away with breaking the law, doesn't
> > mean it would be smart
> > for RedHat to facilitate that...>
> Agreed

By the same token they shouldn't be actively making it difficult either.
There is a balance to be struck here- both sides of this take away
freedom from the user to choose and put in place what they want. In this
case Fedora and non-free software are at extremes. A lot of distros are
finding (or at least trying to) the very fine balance in between.

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-30-2008, 11:43 PM
Ric Moore
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 15:14 -0400, max bianco wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Claude Jones <cjones@levitjames.com> wrote:
> > On Monday April 28 2008 5:17:45 pm max bianco wrote:
> > > > If you want to communicate with others, and view their
> > > > communication with you, flash is the format to use.
> > > >
> > > > If you never communicate with the outside world, it's
> > > > optional.
> > >
> > > Wouldn't it make sense for a universal video format to open?
> >
> > how 'bout if we took all the money back that was spent on the
> > Iraq war and spent it on hydrogen fuel and fusion research...
> >
> That would be great!! You should be President!! Why don't you start
> working on that !!

I already have, on the Mandrake OT list! I was gonna ask Claude to be
the Ambassador to whatever country he choses. Ric

--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-30-2008, 11:46 PM
Ric Moore
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 16:53 -0400, David Boles wrote:
> Ed Greshko wrote:
> > max bianco wrote:
> >
> >> So life is pointless?
> >
> > Life is not....
> >
> > But this "discussion" is...
>
>
> I recall that 'it', this discussion, starts just before a release and
> continues for weeks. Then it dies only to be resurrected again with the coming
> of the next release. ;-)

Software Easter, huh? When the dead are resurrected in Linus and born
anew? <chuckles> Ric

--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-30-2008, 11:52 PM
"Patrick O'Callaghan"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Thu, 2008-05-01 at 00:38 +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> Fedora cannot (as a US organisation) point an end user at a repository
> for free but US patent violating material. Merely providing a link is
> an
> offence and there is caselaw to prove that (the infamous 2600 DVD
> case).

Is this transitive? i.e. if RH points at an offshore site which contains
nothing but pointers to the sensitive material, is it still a violation?
If it's not, problem solved. If it is, then in theory RH would need to
perform a transitive closure on all the web sites it hosts to ensure
there's no path from them to the good stuff (sorry, the bad stuff).

Of course I think like a mathematician, not like a lawyer.

poc

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-30-2008, 11:54 PM
Da Rock
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sun, 2008-04-27 at 15:44 -0400, max bianco wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 7:34 AM, Da Rock <rock_on_the_web@comcen.com.au> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 10:44 -0400, max wrote:
> > > Da Rock wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 11:39 -0600, Robin Laing wrote:
> > > >> Alastair Neil wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com
> > > >>> <mailto:wayward4now@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 13:05 -0700, Francis Earl wrote:
> > > >>> > That article ENTIRELY got it wrong. All RedHat said was they won't be
> > > >>> > pushing Linux on the consumer desktop for some time. They make their
> > > >>> > money from servers, and they are a company, so it's not in their best
> > > >>> > interest to have a product they aren't profiting from.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> OTOH, as I've said for years, desktops beget servers. Who in their right
> > > >>> mind would have ever thought that Windows would become a choice as a
> > > >>> server platform?? The Windows3.1 users got used to the desktop and it
> > > >>> rolled from there. Disregard the desktops of college entry level users,
> > > >>> and they'll migrate with their favorite platform and comfort level to
> > > >>> using it to admin their future server needs. What's not to understand in
> > > >>> this? RedHat could very well be blowing their lead and not seeing it
> > > >>> until too late in the game to recover.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> We (RH) used to have college programs all over the place ...usually
> > > >>> promoted as install fests at Universities. I haven't heard of one in the
> > > >>> press for years now. Servers are where the money is, no doubt. But, it
> > > >>> is better IMHO to have the future admins loyalty through the user
> > > >>> desktop by catering to them. I spent years in Marketing. I learned to
> > > >>> never EVER disregard the little guy. He might become the next purchasing
> > > >>> agent and/or decision maker. My two cents, Ric
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> An where has it got Microsoft? 20 years and countless billions invested
> > > >>> in marketing and they still manage only 30% of the server market.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> True, Novel lost out to WinNT in part because users got used to the
> > > >>> Windows interface and wanted a similar experience for managing their
> > > >>> servers. I refuse to believe that there is such a gulf between Ubuntu
> > > >>> and RHEL in functionality that users would have the same visceral
> > > >>> reaction and defect in droves from RH to Ubuntu - because they love
> > > >>> brown backgrounds on their Gnome desktops. Red Hat has focused its
> > > >>> desktop efforts on crafting a distribution that is best in class for
> > > >>> administering servers, just as SUSE is crafting a business productivity
> > > >>> centric desktop distribution with an emphasis on Windows
> > > >>> interoperability (thus Evolution, Mono/silverlight and "Don't Sue us
> > > >>> please Bill!" agreements). These distros have carved their own niches,
> > > >>> I don't as yet know what Ubuntu's niche is - windows malcontents? home
> > > >>> tinkerers/hobyists? Small Home Office? You could argue that this is
> > > >>> exactly the way linux started and who knows in 10 or 20 years maybe they
> > > >>> will have a significant enterprise share, however, I doubt it. Being
> > > >>> able to play MP3's out of the box rarely makes it onto a enterprise
> > > >>> server deployment specification.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >> This is an interesting comment. Just a few days ago, I read an article
> > > >> about Microsoft pointing out companies that have moved from Linux
> > > >> servers due to the desktop support as well as gui management tools. Of
> > > >> course I hear that they are now adding more command line tools for
> > > >> administration due to demand.
> > > >>
> > > >> I see two aspects to this part of the debate.
> > > >>
> > > >> If people use Linux at work, they will be more likely to use it at home.
> > > >> They will use what they are familiar with. Most computer users are
> > > >> not that intelligent to using their computers. Some cannot even figure
> > > >> out how to update their computers.
> > > >>
> > > >> As for MS not getting a larger server share, this is a strange aspect.
> > > >> Part of the issue in the past has been many admins that new Unix found
> > > >> it easier to move to Linux from Solaris or other versions. The share of
> > > >> Windows servers from what I am reading is increasing. I see this as a
> > > >> result of the new point and click mentality. If you cannot click it,
> > > >> then you cannot manage it. Damn kids today.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > I know thats the mentality, but my god thats bullshit! I'll use cli
> > > > anyday for major tasks- try migrating stats support on a IIS server with
> > > > 400+ sites then you'll know!
> > > >
> > > >> FWIW, this thread has brought out many of the comments that have been
> > > >> stated in this article.
> > > >>
> > > >> Did Canonical Just Get Punked by Red Hat and Novell?
> > > >> http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2008/04/did-canonical-j.html
> > > >>
> > > >> Basically, the announcements are to support the server sales.
> > > >>
> > > >> I did like this comment though.
> > > >>
> > > >> "Curiously, very little attention was paid to Ron Hovespian's comments
> > > >> on Novell's similar plans, made before Red Hat's. If I were Novell, I
> > > >> would take this as a bad sign. Not only did the mainstream media not
> > > >> pick up on Novell's news, but even most of the hard-line Linux
> > > >> blogosphere wrote them off with nary so much as a "meh" And if you can't
> > > >> get those folks mad, you must be doing something wrong! "
> > > >>
> > > >> From the people that I know, the reason to move from Fedora is the
> > > >> upgrade path being easier. Longer support is appreciated. Some of
> > > >> these people are also old time Solaris users as well.
> > > >>
> > > >> I will stick with Fedora as long as I can get third party application
> > > >> that me and my family use. If they are only available on Ubuntu, then I
> > > >> will have to move.
> > > >
> > > > I think it comes down to ease of support as well. If support doesn't
> > > > keep up then the software is rendered useless. Ie MPlayer and codecs...
> > > >
> > > Obviously Fedora is not for the faint of heart.
> >
> > No, unix is not for the faint of heart- Fedora could and should be made
> > easier to gain a greater share of platforms (and help reduce the zombies
> > on the net).
> >
> Greater share of platforms? why? If you define success by marketshare
> then M$ won long ago. Everyone else might as well curl up in a corner
> with their knees to their chest and blubber. You say you want to
> *take* market share but what ever for?what will you do with the
> marketshare once you have it?Spend all your time wondering how to keep
> people from jumping ship that's what.

I'm a sysadmin- I don't care what they use as long as its secure. I hate
M$ for what it stands for- monopolisation of the marketplace and not
giving a shit who they stand on to maintain that monopoly. I also hate
the fact that every OS they send out- for a bucketload of money- doesn't
work as expected and so I (and my clientele and userbase) have to bend
over twice to get screwed by paying for support when it breaks (every
system retailer will do this- buy the system and the hardware is
supported under warranty but the software is not. I have never believed
in this, and my business has reflected it; a very lone wolf).

So any other distro (even osx) is fine as far as I'm concerned.
Incidentally, why do you suppose M$ is trying to jump ship and is SO
desperate to buy yahoo? It wants google's place so it can secure its
future in the industry- not making software, mind you.

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 05-01-2008, 12:02 AM
Alan Cox
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

> Is this transitive? i.e. if RH points at an offshore site which contains
> nothing but pointers to the sensitive material, is it still a violation?

One word "intent".

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 05-01-2008, 12:06 AM
Da Rock
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 07:58 +0930, Tim wrote:
> Tim:
> >> A big company taking the moral stand versus a handful of users taking an
> >> opposite moral stand. Guess which one wins?
>
> Francis Earl:
> > I don't see how setting up livna, or complaining about the contents
> > therein not being in Fedora is a moral stand? It's just lazy and/or
> > ignorant.
>
> Do I really need to spell it out? In the red corner we have a company
> that has taken a stand on what they will and won't do. In the blue
> corner we have a user that has taken a stand that if the system doesn't
> do what they think it should do, to hell with them...
>
> Both sides are posturing about principles, but he's no David, and
> Goliath isn't disturbed.

Goliath may die lonely too...

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 05-01-2008, 12:39 AM
Tim
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Alan Cox wrote:
>> Fedora cannot (as a US organisation) point an end user at a repository
>> for free but US patent violating material. Merely providing a link is
>> an offence and there is caselaw to prove that (the infamous 2600 DVD
>> case).

Patrick O'Callaghan:
> Is this transitive? i.e. if RH points at an offshore site which contains
> nothing but pointers to the sensitive material, is it still a violation?
> If it's not, problem solved.

Surely, even if that sort of thing was possible. As soon as they were
informed (one way or another) that link in the middle was pointing to
something that they're not allowed to do themselves, they'd have to
cease referring to the referrer.

> Of course I think like a mathematician, not like a lawyer.

Methinks you forgot regression.

I neither confirm, nor deny, this email...

--
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 11:40 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org