FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Redhat > Fedora User

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 04-23-2008, 01:42 AM
Francis Earl
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Well, I haven't seen Ubuntu even suggest alternative hardware that isn't
dependent on closed source drivers to do what the user wants. I also
haven't seen anything pointing out any of the various Xiph tools, and
offering ways to allow users to turn their mp3 stuff into oggs (maybe an
interface via their build system that the user can throw MP3's at and be
notified when they are encoded into mp3's would be a nice simple way of
doing this - most existing tools are rather technically inclined
currently) instead of just allowing the user to install these codecs at
will with no notification.

They are doing good things with Java and Flash with the information
provided, but even then if you watch users, they'll just look for a next
or ok button, and hit it without reading a word.

You can't force a user to buy new hardware, but informing them in a
constructive way of what to look for next time might be helpful.

Similarly, users just want to play their media, so if you explain and
give them an easy way to encode their media via vorbis or theora that
might be helpful also.

There are so many things Ubuntu could be doing, but currently their
approach seems to be focused on having as many people running their
software as possible, regardless of ethics involved. That way they can
work their Landscape product into corporations where its users have
successfully convinced management to deploy Ubuntu. Landscape, along
with Launchpad, is proprietary software used for systems management.

On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 20:21 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Francis Earl wrote:
> >
> > It is those things though that halt growth on consumer desktops, so
> > until such issues are resolved, Novell and Red Hat will never appeal
> > much to Joe User. Technically uninclined people do not care about such
> > issues, they just want to play their media library, use their webcams
> > and other similar things, and have their games work.
> >
> > Until Red Hat and Novell can answer these questions in a way that allows
> > them to profit enough to appease shareholders, they will never have a
> > good consumer desktop product offering. I think Ubuntu is
> > counter-productive to that goal though, they are just ensuring consumers
> > continue to not care, rather than trying to really inform them in an
> > effective way.
>
> What would you like to inform them about? That it's a bad idea to use
> an OS that doesn't include licensed codecs as part of its cost and
> doesn't run itunes?
>
> --
> Les Mikesell
> lesmikesell@gmail.com
>

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-23-2008, 01:48 AM
Francis Earl
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Sun Java is not redistributable and currently isn't open source, thus
goes against Fedora values in 2 ways.

Kernel modules that are not GPLv2 compatible are indeed illegal,
however. Other modules are not shipped because they are not part of the
upstream kernel, which again goes against Fedora values.

The next release of Sun Java I believe will be based on openjdk however,
so that shouldn't be an issue going forward, and I'm sure there are
methods to propose legal modules be allowed into Fedora - although I'm
not sure how far that would get...

On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 20:16 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Francis Earl wrote:
> > It has everything to do with legalities, as the source code for the
> > encoders/decoders is available.
>
> Not everything that fedora makes difficult is illegal. Sun Java, for
> one example, the drivers provided by the vendors of the hardware users
> have chosen to purchase for another.
>
> --
> Les Mikesell
> lesmikesell@gmail.com
>
>
>
>

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-23-2008, 02:23 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 13:05 -0700, Francis Earl wrote:
> That article ENTIRELY got it wrong. All RedHat said was they won't be
> pushing Linux on the consumer desktop for some time. They make their
> money from servers, and they are a company, so it's not in their best
> interest to have a product they aren't profiting from.

OTOH, as I've said for years, desktops beget servers. Who in their right
mind would have ever thought that Windows would become a choice as a
server platform?? The Windows3.1 users got used to the desktop and it
rolled from there. Disregard the desktops of college entry level users,
and they'll migrate with their favorite platform and comfort level to
using it to admin their future server needs. What's not to understand in
this? RedHat could very well be blowing their lead and not seeing it
until too late in the game to recover.

We (RH) used to have college programs all over the place ...usually
promoted as install fests at Universities. I haven't heard of one in the
press for years now. Servers are where the money is, no doubt. But, it
is better IMHO to have the future admins loyalty through the user
desktop by catering to them. I spent years in Marketing. I learned to
never EVER disregard the little guy. He might become the next purchasing
agent and/or decision maker. My two cents, Ric

--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-23-2008, 03:26 AM
"Arthur Pemberton"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan
<pocallaghan@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 15:57 -0700, Francis Earl wrote:
> > Yes, despite it's legal ramifications... far better to risk your company
> > to appease users. It's not like it's not available for Fedora, but Red
> > Hat doesn't risk the future of the company on it.
> >
> > Google for 'Microsoft billion mp3'
> >
> > Mark is rich, but that's about 3 times his worth right there... he isn't
> > licensing MP3 or any other codec for his distro, Microsoft just licensed
> > it from the wrong people.
> >
> > Now wonder consider ffmpeg for instance has Apple codecs, mpg2/4 and
> > Microsoft codecs just to name a few, and ask yourself whether it's smart
> > to distribute this stuff.
> >
> > Only reason he gets away with it is because Ubuntu represents such a low
> > market share that it's not worth it today.
>
> AFAIK he doesn't "distribute" it (for some meaning of "distribute"),
> just makes it easy to get. I may be wrong (and I've no interest in
> arguing about it), but I think the Fedora rationale for not doing the
> same thing has more to do with avoiding lockin than avoiding lawsuits.

RedHat employs lawyers. Unless the managed to employ only incompetent
lawyers, I'm guessing they know more than you on this. So making such
statements as "as far as you know" is useless.


--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-23-2008, 03:50 AM
"Patrick O'Callaghan"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 22:26 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan
> <pocallaghan@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 15:57 -0700, Francis Earl wrote:
> > > Yes, despite it's legal ramifications... far better to risk your company
> > > to appease users. It's not like it's not available for Fedora, but Red
> > > Hat doesn't risk the future of the company on it.
> > >
> > > Google for 'Microsoft billion mp3'
> > >
> > > Mark is rich, but that's about 3 times his worth right there... he isn't
> > > licensing MP3 or any other codec for his distro, Microsoft just licensed
> > > it from the wrong people.
> > >
> > > Now wonder consider ffmpeg for instance has Apple codecs, mpg2/4 and
> > > Microsoft codecs just to name a few, and ask yourself whether it's smart
> > > to distribute this stuff.
> > >
> > > Only reason he gets away with it is because Ubuntu represents such a low
> > > market share that it's not worth it today.
> >
> > AFAIK he doesn't "distribute" it (for some meaning of "distribute"),
> > just makes it easy to get. I may be wrong (and I've no interest in
> > arguing about it), but I think the Fedora rationale for not doing the
> > same thing has more to do with avoiding lockin than avoiding lawsuits.
>
> RedHat employs lawyers. Unless the managed to employ only incompetent
> lawyers, I'm guessing they know more than you on this. So making such
> statements as "as far as you know" is useless.

The statement beginning AFAIK is with reference to Mark Shuttleworth (as
is perfectly obvious from context), and furthermore is a simple question
of fact which others have since corrected. Did I say RH had bad lawyers?
Did I say that RH took its decision with no legal basis? No and no.

Did RH take its decision for a mixture of reasons, some of which may not
be simply questions of legality? Gosh, a question without a black and
white answer.

poc

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-23-2008, 04:29 AM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Francis Earl wrote:

Sun Java is not redistributable


It is redistributable or Ubuntu couldn't have it either. And it could
be trivial to add even if it wasn't included. It isn't.



and currently isn't open source, thus
goes against Fedora values in 2 ways.


You have to choose between being a political platform with an agenda or
a usable distribution.



Kernel modules that are not GPLv2 compatible are indeed illegal,
however.


A matter of opinion and speculation so far - or just plain FUD... I'd
like to see this shaken out so if it really is illegal to use Linux with
software of your choice everyone can just move on.


> Other modules are not shipped because they are not part of the

upstream kernel, which again goes against Fedora values.


And someone is wondering why people like Ubuntu?

--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-23-2008, 05:26 AM
Francis Earl
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

> It is redistributable or Ubuntu couldn't have it either. And it could
> be trivial to add even if it wasn't included. It isn't.

Sun and Ubuntu agreed that to distribute it, the user would be presented
with terms to agree on. Red Hat decided this was unacceptable. Red Hat
is one of the leading reasons Sun opened Java as they employ many of the
Classpath guys - and it was nearly a feature complete replacement for
Sun's Java.

If Red Hat had caved like Ubuntu did, Sun never would have opened Java,
they were firmly against it for something like 8 years (see IBM's open
letter on the topic.

> You have to choose between being a political platform with an agenda or
> a usable distribution.

See above for why that won't happen. This is why Red Hat doesn't believe
Linux is ready for the consumer desktop though, and why it is acceptable
to enterprises that don't need their users playing mp3's all day.

> A matter of opinion and speculation so far - or just plain FUD... I'd
> like to see this shaken out so if it really is illegal to use Linux with
> software of your choice everyone can just move on.

No, it is neither opinion nor speculation. Nvidia gets away with it
because they do not distribute the driver as part of the kernel. The
kernel developers are looking for ways to ensure this is harder in the
future so that people don't jump through such loopholes. I doubt they
would do that though until there are open source alternatives that are
good enough. It would simply effect too many users.


> And someone is wondering why people like Ubuntu?

No. I was the person that stated that this is EXACTLY why people like
Ubuntu, they're lazy. Such things are available, but Joe User doesn't
care to figure out where to get it.

If you want these modules in the Fedora kernel, ask upstream to include
it, else it's not going into Fedora. Even file bugs to request they be
included upstream within the Fedora bugzilla.

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-23-2008, 06:08 AM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Francis Earl wrote:

It is redistributable or Ubuntu couldn't have it either. And it could
be trivial to add even if it wasn't included. It isn't.


Sun and Ubuntu agreed that to distribute it, the user would be presented
with terms to agree on. Red Hat decided this was unacceptable. Red Hat
is one of the leading reasons Sun opened Java as they employ many of the
Classpath guys - and it was nearly a feature complete replacement for
Sun's Java.

If Red Hat had caved like Ubuntu did, Sun never would have opened Java,
they were firmly against it for something like 8 years (see IBM's open
letter on the topic.


You say that as though you think IBM or Red Hat can teach Sun something
about giving away code. Sun being the largest single open source
contributor... (3x IBM, 5x RH,
http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/ict/policy/doc/2006-11-20-flossimpact.pdf,
pg. 51 - and that was before opensolaris, zfs, or the jdk). Perhaps you
imagine the tail is wagging the dog here.


Or that you think letting anyone modify the code will improve it in some
reasonable amount of time. I expect to see a repeat of the GPL flavors
of NFS that took about a decade to become usable. If other people could
do better than Sun with the code we'd have had an open version that
works already.



A matter of opinion and speculation so far - or just plain FUD... I'd
like to see this shaken out so if it really is illegal to use Linux with
software of your choice everyone can just move on.


No, it is neither opinion nor speculation.


Until someone proves that device driver code is derived from one of the
OS's it can be used with and is not fair use of an interface it is all
speculation.


> Nvidia gets away with it

because they do not distribute the driver as part of the kernel. The
kernel developers are looking for ways to ensure this is harder in the
future so that people don't jump through such loopholes.


I really have to wonder why even a small percent of OS users choose
something that goes out of its way to make things harder for them.


> I doubt they

would do that though until there are open source alternatives that are
good enough. It would simply effect too many users.


Wait - did you say someone cares about users?

--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-23-2008, 06:22 AM
"Alastair Neil"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 13:05 -0700, Francis Earl wrote:

> That article ENTIRELY got it wrong. All RedHat said was they won't be

> pushing Linux on the consumer desktop for some time. They make their

> money from servers, and they are a company, so it's not in their best

> interest to have a product they aren't profiting from.



OTOH, as I've said for years, desktops beget servers. Who in their right

mind would have ever thought that Windows would become a choice as a

server platform?? The Windows3.1 users got used to the desktop and it

rolled from there. Disregard the desktops of college entry level users,

and they'll migrate with their favorite platform and comfort level to

using it to admin their future server needs. What's not to understand in

this? RedHat could very well be blowing their lead and not seeing it

until too late in the game to recover.



We (RH) used to have college programs all over the place ...usually

promoted as install fests at Universities. I haven't heard of one in the

press for years now. Servers are where the money is, no doubt. But, it

is better IMHO to have the future admins loyalty through the user

desktop by catering to them. I spent years in Marketing. I learned to

never EVER disregard the little guy. He might become the next purchasing

agent and/or decision maker. My two cents, Ric
An where has it got Microsoft? 20 years and countless billions invested in marketing and they still manage only 30% of the server market.

True, Novel lost out to WinNT in part because users got used to the Windows interface and wanted a similar experience for managing their servers.* I refuse to believe that there is such a* gulf between Ubuntu and RHEL in functionality that users would have the same visceral reaction and defect in droves from RH to Ubuntu - because they love brown backgrounds on their Gnome desktops.* Red Hat has focused its desktop efforts on crafting a distribution that is best in class for administering servers, just as SUSE is crafting a business productivity centric desktop distribution with an emphasis on Windows interoperability (thus Evolution, Mono/silverlight and "Don't Sue us please Bill!" agreements).* These distros have carved their own niches, I don't as yet know what Ubuntu's niche is - windows malcontents? home tinkerers/hobyists?* Small Home Office?* You could argue that this is exactly the way linux started and who knows in 10 or 20 years maybe they will have a significant enterprise share, however, I doubt it.* Being able to play MP3's out of the box rarely makes it onto a enterprise server deployment specification.





--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 
Old 04-23-2008, 06:59 AM
Francis Earl
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

> You say that as though you think IBM or Red Hat can teach Sun something
> about giving away code. Sun being the largest single open source
> contributor... (3x IBM, 5x RH,
> http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/ict/policy/doc/2006-11-20-flossimpact.pdf,
> pg. 51 - and that was before opensolaris, zfs, or the jdk). Perhaps you
> imagine the tail is wagging the dog here.
>
> Or that you think letting anyone modify the code will improve it in some
> reasonable amount of time. I expect to see a repeat of the GPL flavors
> of NFS that took about a decade to become usable. If other people could
> do better than Sun with the code we'd have had an open version that
> works already.

It's funny, because if you take away OpenOffice.org/OpenSolaris they're
really done very little, and no distros actually use Sun's OpenOffice,
they use Novells (go-oo.org) because Sun stiffles development too much.

Sun is proprietary Open Source unless it suites them - see CDDL for why
this is true. Even in the case of NFS, I believe there was a BSD
alternative developing traction prior to its release.

> Until someone proves that device driver code is derived from one of the
> OS's it can be used with and is not fair use of an interface it is all
> speculation.

Umm, how do you suppose a driver work if it doesn't make calls into the
kernel? Using those functions makes it a derived work.


> I really have to wonder why even a small percent of OS users choose
> something that goes out of its way to make things harder for them.

They use it because they don't want to allow others to continue making
it hard for them to make their own decisions. If people knew the types
of restrictions they instill on themselves by using proprietary
software, no one would ever use it.

It is because of the vast amount of proprietary code that users are
forced to use things like Microsoft Office.

> Wait - did you say someone cares about users?

You're right, they should do it asap. It's not like there aren't open
source alternatives that are adequate. Personally I'm sick of hearing
that ATI and nVidia don't work with latest releases of software. If they
turned that over the guys developing that software, we wouldn't have to
wait.

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list@redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 09:47 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org