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Old 04-28-2008, 04:53 PM
Alan Cox
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

> But that _is_ the FSF claim

I can't speak for the FSF and I certainly don't always agree with them.

> > Suppose you write a piece of software which is split into a collection of
> > modules. At what point do I need your permission to dynamically link
> > another program against them.
>
> Never, if you obtained them with the right to use your copy.

Ok I should have said "and redistributed" about the bits of my own.

> a copyright violation. It would be intriguing to see someone try to
> prove otherwise in a case where the library's own license specifies that
> there are no usage restrictions.

The relevant examples would probably be things like the story of
Objective C front ends - never ended up in court and actually was as much
about data structures and pipes (gcc backend with proprietary front end).

> > It seems to be where many lawyers look to understand the equivalences in
> > copyright law where there is caselaw, along with things like record
> > compilations.
>
> But none of those start with the ability of anyone to obtain their
> licensed copy freely, so there is no equivalence. You'd have to start

I've yet to see anywhere the law distinguishes "obtaining freely" from
paying in terms of copyright licences.

> with the premise that everyone who could possible be the target of the
> claimed derived work's infringing copy already has their own licensed
> copy of the original.

Not everyone neccessarily has a licensed copy of a GPL work. They may not
have received one, they may have chosen not to accept the licence, they
may have breached the licence and lost the right to use it. They may even
be in a situation where national law of a country prohibits them
receiving a copy (eg US to Syria) and national law overrides licence and
contract in almost all cases.

> It would be more like providing a custom case for your own copy of a record than a
> compilation that includes the same content.

Thats a whole seperate can of worms, including trademark law, moral
rights and isn't simple of itself 8(

Alan

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Old 04-28-2008, 04:53 PM
Paul Shaffer
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

How's it feel being one of the stools?


--- On Mon, 4/28/08, Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote:

> From: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves
> To: ace_wizard@yahoo.com
> Date: Monday, April 28, 2008, 10:27 AM
> > There's a big middle ground other distros are
> filling and which Fedora has apparently ?
> > abandoned.
>
> Abandoned isn't the word I'd choose - it never
> wanted or had the middle
> ground in the first place. And as someone who worked on
> late RH products
> I have to say the "middle ground" has a tendancy
> to be the gap between
> two stools.
>
> Alan


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Old 04-28-2008, 04:56 PM
Les
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 11:27 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Ric Moore wrote:
> >
> >> Programmers haven't seen the need for control-key commands since
> >> keyboards started including an alt key and a bunch of function keys and
> >> everything has a mouse.
> >
> > I think his point was that all require that "you remove your hands from
> > the home row due to the means by which they are called."
>
> Yes, but if you are in a hurry you would type all the text first, then
> go back through and apply styles instead of micro-managing formatting as
> you go.
>
> > I used Wordstar for quite awhile during my cp/m days, and still miss
> > it.
>
> It was OK for its time but it didn't age very well.
That is NOT what happened. I don't remember all the details, but the OS
intercepted some of the main command key sequences which rendered
Wordstar unusable. They couldn't even port it to windows without
removing the command sequences and replacing them with mouse gestures,
and that made it almost identical with Word, except at that time
Wordstar had merge and variable capabilities that Word couldn't
incorporate until some patents ran out. At the same time Microsoft
bought up some of the vendors supplying snap-ins to Wordstar, and
discontinued their production. I don't know if there is a complete
history anywhere, and I suspect that most of it has gone away by now,
except for some arcane archives somewhere, but it was a real disservice
to the world of editing, and among its results is the prevalence of
Carpal Tunnel syndrome.

Regards,
Les H

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Old 04-28-2008, 04:56 PM
Alan Cox
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:51:56 -0700 (PDT)
Paul Shaffer <ace_wizard@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Another simplistic analogy from Cox that fails to even resemble an intelligent comment:

I shall smile in the happy knowledge that any future employer of yours is
going to find this in their google searches.

And I think at this point I shall stop playing with the troll as I have
more useful things to do.

Alan
--
"Your insight, sir, is truly stunning. That is to say, it reminds of
a sudden and unpleasant contact with something dense and misplaced."
-- Al Viro

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Old 04-28-2008, 05:06 PM
Gene Heskett
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Monday 28 April 2008, Tim wrote:
>On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 13:55 +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
>> Just as with books - am I creating a book referencing another work or
>> a book that incorporates chunks of another book, and that depends on
>> context and isn't entirely clear - see the current Harry Potter
>> lawsuit.
>
>I think some people are playing with their magic wands, just a little
>bit too much, in this thread...

Small correction Tim, they are trying to do more with their magic than the
wand contains. Either they can't read the directions, or somebody sold them a
ringer for the real thing. Either way, they're being twits in front of a lot
of people who DO know better.

--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Say something you'll be sorry for, I love receiving apologies.

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Old 04-28-2008, 05:12 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Les wrote:


Programmers haven't seen the need for control-key commands since
keyboards started including an alt key and a bunch of function keys and
everything has a mouse.

I think his point was that all require that "you remove your hands from
the home row due to the means by which they are called."
Yes, but if you are in a hurry you would type all the text first, then
go back through and apply styles instead of micro-managing formatting as
you go.



I used Wordstar for quite awhile during my cp/m days, and still miss
it.

It was OK for its time but it didn't age very well.

That is NOT what happened. I don't remember all the details, but the OS
intercepted some of the main command key sequences which rendered
Wordstar unusable. They couldn't even port it to windows without
removing the command sequences and replacing them with mouse gestures,
and that made it almost identical with Word, except at that time
Wordstar had merge and variable capabilities that Word couldn't
incorporate until some patents ran out. At the same time Microsoft
bought up some of the vendors supplying snap-ins to Wordstar, and
discontinued their production. I don't know if there is a complete
history anywhere, and I suspect that most of it has gone away by now,
except for some arcane archives somewhere, but it was a real disservice
to the world of editing, and among its results is the prevalence of
Carpal Tunnel syndrome.


If your point was that Microsoft is an abusive monopoly that deserves
better competition, then I didn't mean to argue with it.


--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com

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Old 04-28-2008, 05:15 PM
Les
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 12:06 -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 22:11 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
>
> > Programmers haven't seen the need for control-key commands since
> > keyboards started including an alt key and a bunch of function keys and
> > everything has a mouse.
>
> I think his point was that all require that "you remove your hands from
> the home row due to the means by which they are called."
>
> I used Wordstar for quite awhile during my cp/m days, and still miss
> it.
>
But how about control-c and control-v, and if the need is not present,
why are there speed key equivalents for the mouse commands in every
Microsoft application? When the ALT key was started, what was it for?
AS I recall, it was to access an alternate font, for symbols and so
forth, but then it got used for other purposes. Then we acquired yet
another key, the Windows key, similar to the apple keyboard. Now we
have 47 main keys, along with control, alt and windows, and some
software even distinguishes between left and right of each alt, control
and windows, along with left and right shift, so you now have the
equivalent of 47*3*4= 564 (unshifted, shift right, shift left, along
with no, alt, windows, and control) key combinations in the lexicon,
should you choose to implement all the calls. And if you add the
function, number pad, locks, and system control keys there are even more
possible combinations available. Should you choose to get even more
exotic, you can add mouse gestures to these shift and operations keys
along with 5 button mouse, and chords to achieve a littany that is
beyond geekdom.

Yet for editing purposes, Wordstar offered the essential functionality
without all these buttons, mousing around, and arbitrary sequencing with
relatively simple command sequences, including a full menu callable from
the home row as well. If you mastered Wordstar, all other editors were
clunky, awkward and slow.

Regards,
Les H

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Old 04-28-2008, 05:23 PM
Paul Shaffer
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Thank you. Now go wipe your Fedora. That would be useful and reduce the smell for everyone..


--- On Mon, 4/28/08, Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote:

> From: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves
> To: ace_wizard@yahoo.com, "For users of Fedora" <fedora-list@redhat.com>
> Cc: ace_wizard@yahoo.com
> Date: Monday, April 28, 2008, 10:56 AM
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:51:56 -0700 (PDT)
> Paul Shaffer <ace_wizard@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Another simplistic analogy from Cox that fails to even
> resemble an intelligent comment:
>
> I shall smile in the happy knowledge that any future
> employer of yours is
> going to find this in their google searches.
>
> And I think at this point I shall stop playing with the
> troll as I have
> more useful things to do.
>
> Alan
> --
> "Your insight, sir, is truly stunning. That is to
> say, it reminds of
> a sudden and unpleasant contact with something dense
> and misplaced."
> -- Al Viro


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Old 04-28-2008, 05:26 PM
Craig White
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 10:15 -0700, Les wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 12:06 -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 22:11 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
> >
> > > Programmers haven't seen the need for control-key commands since
> > > keyboards started including an alt key and a bunch of function keys and
> > > everything has a mouse.
> >
> > I think his point was that all require that "you remove your hands from
> > the home row due to the means by which they are called."
> >
> > I used Wordstar for quite awhile during my cp/m days, and still miss
> > it.
> >
> But how about control-c and control-v, and if the need is not present,
> why are there speed key equivalents for the mouse commands in every
> Microsoft application? When the ALT key was started, what was it for?
> AS I recall, it was to access an alternate font, for symbols and so
> forth, but then it got used for other purposes. Then we acquired yet
> another key, the Windows key, similar to the apple keyboard. Now we
> have 47 main keys, along with control, alt and windows, and some
> software even distinguishes between left and right of each alt, control
> and windows, along with left and right shift, so you now have the
> equivalent of 47*3*4= 564 (unshifted, shift right, shift left, along
> with no, alt, windows, and control) key combinations in the lexicon,
> should you choose to implement all the calls. And if you add the
> function, number pad, locks, and system control keys there are even more
> possible combinations available. Should you choose to get even more
> exotic, you can add mouse gestures to these shift and operations keys
> along with 5 button mouse, and chords to achieve a littany that is
> beyond geekdom.
>
> Yet for editing purposes, Wordstar offered the essential functionality
> without all these buttons, mousing around, and arbitrary sequencing with
> relatively simple command sequences, including a full menu callable from
> the home row as well. If you mastered Wordstar, all other editors were
> clunky, awkward and slow.
----
yum install joe - you can go home again

Craig

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Old 04-28-2008, 05:35 PM
"max bianco"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Matthew Saltzman <mjs@clemson.edu> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 10:41 -0400, max bianco wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:23 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
>
> > > Which is a bizarre thing to be concerned about because the only thing they
> > > could possibly do to diminish the value of the original copy would be to
> > > improve it so much that no one would want the original. As a potential user
> > > of that improved version, I think that restriction is a bad thing. And most
> > > bizarre of all is the notion that I can't obtain my own copy of a GPL'd
> > > library, and someone else's code under their own terms separately.
> > >
> > The hard work is done by the original author. So if I understand you
> > correctly, its ok with you if i use your code, improve it, and
> > relicense it so what you freely contributed is now going to cost you
> > money. So your hard work now belongs to someone else.
> >
>
> I don't think anyone is talking about modifying your code and
> relicensing it. That would clearly be a derived work, and there's no
> question you can impose conditions on its redistribution.
>
> You write a library. I write a program that calls routines in your
> library. Now the question is whether your license can impose conditions
> on my distribution of my own code. That's a fuzzy, gray area, but (to
> mix a metaphor) it's just the tip of the iceberg of complexity.
>
> ChipCo creates a piece of specialized hardware and releases a
> proprietary driver. I write code to interface your library and the
> ChipCo driver. Can your license prevent me from distributing my code?
> If so, you and I might have a reasonable disagreement about whether
> that's a good thing. But you can't deny that some people who might
> benefit from my code (and by extension, your code) are prevented from
> doing so. You can only argue that some greater good is served by their
> suffering. Note that I want to be generous with my code and release it
> under an open-source license; I'm not trying to unfairly benefit from
> your work.
>
> You write a library and distribute it under an open-source license. I
> write a library and distribute it under a slightly different--but
> incompatible--open-source license. Les writes a program that links to
> both libraries. If your license can impose conditions on Les's
> distribution of his program, then users who would get value from Les's
> program are SOL. Note that nothing here violates the spirit of OSS.
> Everyone involved wants to be generous. Nobody is trying to unfairly
> benefit from anyone else's work. But due to a technicality, nobody can
> benefit from Les's work at all! That seems like a shame, doesn't it?
>

Yes it does but what then is the answer?Everybody argues that A is
right or B is wrong or c....you get the idea. What is the solution?
Let's stop going over the same ground and come up with some kind of
solution. The end user is ultimately the only one that matters, i
think everyone can agree on that, if the end user cannot get their
work done then everyone suffers, so what should we as end user's
do?should i have to pay for a brand new office suite when nothing
substantial except the companies desire to support it has changed?That
is an example not a way to drag M$ into this, so please lets leave the
M$ bashing where it belongs. this will of course create another debate
but at least we will subtly change the content of the conversation.

Max

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