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Old 04-27-2008, 03:23 PM
Ben Kevan
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Tuesday 22 April 2008 12:43:34 pm Robin Laing wrote:
> I came across this article and as a Fedora user at home and work, I
> think this is important to know.
>
> A few weeks ago, there was a discussion about Ubuntu on this list and I
> feel that this is part of that discussion.
>
> ----Article link----
>
> The Biggest Blunder: Or why Red Hat and Novell just left the door wide
> open to Ubuntu
> http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/102011/index.html
>
> In recent announcements both Red Hat and Novell made it pretty clear
> that their foray onto the desktop would be delayed quite a bit longer.
> What they do not know is that they just left the door wide open for
> Ubuntu to conquer the desktop and the server space.
> ----/Article link-----
>
>
> Basically, both Novell and RedHat are backing away from pushing Linux to
> the desktop. But Ubuntu is not backing away.
>
> As a Fedora user, I see this as an issue. At home I need games and the
> applications that my family use. To date I have not had issues with
> Fedora up to 7. When I updated my machines at home, there were
> applications that I couldn't get for F8 so I installed F7. I have not
> checked to see if these are available for F8 at present. But they were
> available for the latest release of Ubuntu.
>
> I am interested in others views on this.
>
> --
> Robin Laing

I am actually an openSUSE user although I do use RHEL / CentOS in the
enterprise.

Why don't I use Ubuntu? No choice of installed software at the beginning (ala
the Microsoft Way). No choice of Desktop Environments (sure you have the
other sister distributions, but they are not at the same feature level of
Ubuntu).

Why don't I use Fedora? I used to, however I was dissapointed with how they
handled things around Fedora 4 (and lets not forget the SELinux Bust). Other
then that, I do give every new distribution a run to see how it is
progressing.

Do I agree with them putting RHEL Desktop / SLED or openSUSE / Fedora on the
way-side on prebuilt consumer machines? Sure it's their business decision
(although Novell is historiclly pretty bad at making those). What would I
like to see? I would love to see Fedora / openSUSE / Ubuntu as all a choice
to be pre-loaded on machines but I think having multiple DE's may cause the
inability for that unless they pulled onto a standard (I prefer KDE as a
feature rich DE)

Ben

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Old 04-27-2008, 03:39 PM
"Mikkel L. Ellertson"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Paul Shaffer wrote:


Fedora has become a niche oddity in the Linux distro field because
they view the vast majority of potential users as scapegoats for some
holier than thou OS delusion.

I though Fedora was a "niche" distribution from the beginning. It
has been aimed to the more technical user from the beginning. It
tries new things, and sometimes breaks things. It counts on users to
help find bugs, and report them.


Linux is about choice. Different distributions are aimed at
different user bases. I have never understood the insistence of some
people that all distribution must be designed for the lowest common
denominator or must compete for the largest market share in all
areas. I feel a distribution is a success if it fills the needs of
its target audience. Fedora seems to be doing this.


Mikkel
--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!

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Old 04-27-2008, 04:02 PM
Francis Earl
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sun, 2008-04-27 at 08:20 -0700, Paul Shaffer wrote:
> It's called "mindshare." And since when do you define relevance for Redhat's customers? Sounds rather presumptuous, to me. You mention the mindshare concept later, but don't seem to understand it works both ways. And it's a huge advantage in a competitive marketplace.

I am simply stating RedHat's stance on the matter, they are defining
this themselves. It is hard, however, for RedHat to compete in the
consumer desktop desktop space while playing the rules of Microsoft and
Apple. You likely didn't pay for Fedora, yet you expect certain things,
I think that is a little more presumptuous.

> Ya think? Ok "strides" compared to what - the over 90% share M$ enjoys? Methinks we got alot more stridin' to do.

That has NOTHING to do with what I meant, although in fairness I wasn't
clear on that. What I meant was that Linux is convincing many companies
to become part of the open source ecosystem. At this point, use by the
average home user isn't a priority. RedHat wants a good, strong story to
take to consumers before it ever tries to enter that space.

> I suppose Redhat more prefers neglect to rape. Or maybe passive coercion. But this approach is doomed to failure as we've already seen by Ubuntu's success. Redhat's ability to ensure anything in this industry is doubtful and becoming less a factor all the time as long as they and people like you decry the "ignorant" society and people who can't add a repo. Fedora has become a niche oddity in the Linux distro field because they view the vast majority of potential users as scapegoats for some holier than thou OS delusion.

Define the success Ubuntu has seen. Ubuntu is NOT making money, at all.
How are they successful, because more people who aren't spending a dime
have used their software than they have Fedora?

As much as you seem to not comprehend, the consumer desktop is NOT a
priority. Novell has made such things a priority, and they are barely in
the black today. RedHats focus is on developing a better story on the
CORPORATE desktop, making more inroads into the corporate space, and
maybe one day developing a desktop that consumers would buy.

RedHat is a profitable company today, and is focused on bettering the
Linux ecosystem. Considering they were the first company to make money
from Linux in any note worthy way, and that Linux today is a $45 billion
dollar industry, I think they're doing ok.

Guess how much of that $45 billion is related to consumer desktops, and
you'll see how irrelevant this debate really is.

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Old 04-27-2008, 05:53 PM
g
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Francis Earl wrote:
> maybe one day developing a desktop that consumers would buy.

think about that. what is rhel? free?

that really does not go with below.

> from Linux in any note worthy way, and that Linux today is a $45 billion
> dollar industry, I think they're doing ok.
>
> Guess how much of that $45 billion is related to consumer desktops, and
> you'll see how irrelevant this debate really is.

agreed, their main money is from support and _one_ of reasons people by it.

yet, if rh desktop was not doing what customers want, they would not buy it
just for support.

anyway, go ahead, i am enjoying rest of your views.


- --

tc,hago.

g
.


without fences, who needs gates.
- --.
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Old 04-27-2008, 06:13 PM
Francis Earl
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

> if rh desktop was not doing what customers want, they would not buy it
> just for support.

That's just it, RH Desktop _does_ do what it's customers want... thing
is, what is the target audience of RH Desktop?

Consumers expect an entirely different set of functionality, and today,
Linux is still behind the curb there. The groups that are packaging
Linux to target these groups aren't doing a very good job of advertising
and educating those users either. They are simply facilitating the kinds
of things that made FOSS appealing in the first place, they are
continuing to allow users to be locked into proprietary models.

Who is that helping? You think users would continue to use AAC (iPOD) or
MP3 etc if they knew they do not own that media they just paid $1 for?
Apple is currently the largest distributor of music in the world, users
can't even share that music with their friends legally. One dollar is a
small figure, but how much is Apple making for basically just allowing
users to listen?

Users do that willingly though, and complain if they're not able to be
ripped off in such ways. That is what RedHat is fighting in the consumer
space, and why they aren't willing to invest millions trying to appeal
to these people.

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Old 04-27-2008, 06:31 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

--- Francis Earl <lunitik@gmail.com> wrote:

> > if rh desktop was not doing what customers want,
> they would not buy it
> > just for support.
>
> That's just it, RH Desktop _does_ do what it's
> customers want... thing
> is, what is the target audience of RH Desktop?
>
> Consumers expect an entirely different set of
> functionality, and today,
> Linux is still behind the curb there. The groups
> that are packaging
> Linux to target these groups aren't doing a very
> good job of advertising
> and educating those users either. They are simply
> facilitating the kinds
> of things that made FOSS appealing in the first
> place, they are
> continuing to allow users to be locked into
> proprietary models.
>
> Who is that helping? You think users would continue
> to use AAC (iPOD) or
> MP3 etc if they knew they do not own that media they
> just paid $1 for?
> Apple is currently the largest distributor of music
> in the world, users
> can't even share that music with their friends
> legally. One dollar is a
> small figure, but how much is Apple making for
> basically just allowing
> users to listen?
>
Apparently some of the MP3 patents are supposedly
dying out, but not so soon

http://www.tunequest.org/a-big-list-of-mp3-patents/20070226/

As for the apple Ipod, and others they can get hacked
and unpaid music can be placed onto them. I have some
students that are very bright in this area, they put
music onto cell phones without paying for the music.
They are sharp with computers and electronics but ask
them about academics and they do not answer. They do
need to be dissapointed with Apple as they do not care
what they do, they know that someone, somewhere is
working to ensure that they can do other things that
Apple did not want them to do.

Regards,

Antonio
>
> Users do that willingly though, and complain if
> they're not able to be
> ripped off in such ways. That is what RedHat is
> fighting in the consumer
> space, and why they aren't willing to invest
> millions trying to appeal
> to these people.
>
> --
> fedora-list mailing list
> fedora-list@redhat.com
> To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>



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Old 04-27-2008, 06:37 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Francis Earl wrote:


An interface is agnostic to what is on the other side, which is the
point of it being an interface. And going out of your way to not work
with certain others is anticompetitive behavior.


You don't seem to get it, GNU was founded on certain beliefs, and just
because those beliefs are now entering the mainstream does NOT mean
RedHat and other strong believers should reverse their decisions.


It's not a matter of 'getting it'. The mechanism used to enforce the
beliefs are counterproductive to the goals. RedHat, of course has a
huge vested interest in keeping others from being able to add
improvements that they can't also automatically obtain but that's not my
point here.



Take a look at http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Members to see how
anti-competitive Linux is in the tech industry. Anyone that wants in can
contribute and have a say in the direction of it... No one owns Linux,
all you have to do is play by the rules.


But you can't include content already under different restrictions.
There's a lot of that content - some with no legal alternative
replacements possible.


You can't choose to cater/not cater. You either present a usable
interface and give the user the freedom to decide what to put on the
other side, or you don't. The rest is just side effects.


I'll remind you it's ILLEGAL to have non-free code link against GPL
code.


Yes, and that keeps GPL'd code from being used at all in many situations
which is the part I consider counterproductive. The way to oppose
overpriced proprietary software is to make usable replacements for as
much of it as possible - which necessarily involves using it with code
under different restrictions for as long as there are no free
alternatives. Instead, the license forces users to continue to use all
non-free code since they can't be mixed.



The price you pay for that is that you get drivers a little late,



No, code covered by copyright can be replaced by alternative versions,
although in the driver case it is generally written by someone with less
incentive to make it work than what the vendor would provide. However,
in any location where software patents are recognized you can't have any
algorithm covered by a patent until it expires or someone buys it and
releases it for free redistribution.


The scary part here is that no one really knows how much software is
patented, or how broadly the claims might be interpreted. Even if we
accept on faith that no one has intentionally duplicated any patented
techniques into Linux, there's no reason to think that they haven't
gotten there by accident as a matter of duplicating needed functionality.



oh well. Windows users have been perfectly fine using a system that
doesn't even support their hardware out of the box.


Windows doesn't change its driver interface on a monthly basis, so users
have no problem getting and installing a vendor-provided driver that
normally continues to work for the life of their machine. That scheme
is not a problem.



No one is suing ATI
or Nvidia, but they are some of companies not abiding by the rules.


If their software uses components already under different restrictions
they can't possibly abide by the law while releasing under GPL terms.



DRI
is working as fast as they can though to create a good story despite
that.


Video drivers are a tiny part of this problem.

--
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lesmikesell@gmail.com

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Old 04-27-2008, 06:39 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

--- Antonio Olivares <olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> --- Francis Earl <lunitik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > if rh desktop was not doing what customers want,
> > they would not buy it
> > > just for support.
> >
> > That's just it, RH Desktop _does_ do what it's
> > customers want... thing
> > is, what is the target audience of RH Desktop?
> >
> > Consumers expect an entirely different set of
> > functionality, and today,
> > Linux is still behind the curb there. The groups
> > that are packaging
> > Linux to target these groups aren't doing a very
> > good job of advertising
> > and educating those users either. They are simply
> > facilitating the kinds
> > of things that made FOSS appealing in the first
> > place, they are
> > continuing to allow users to be locked into
> > proprietary models.
> >
> > Who is that helping? You think users would
> continue
> > to use AAC (iPOD) or
> > MP3 etc if they knew they do not own that media
> they
> > just paid $1 for?
> > Apple is currently the largest distributor of
> music
> > in the world, users
> > can't even share that music with their friends
> > legally. One dollar is a
> > small figure, but how much is Apple making for
> > basically just allowing
> > users to listen?
> >
> Apparently some of the MP3 patents are supposedly
> dying out, but not so soon
>
>
http://www.tunequest.org/a-big-list-of-mp3-patents/20070226/
>
> As for the apple Ipod, and others they can get
> hacked
> and unpaid music can be placed onto them. I have
> some
> students that are very bright in this area, they put
> music onto cell phones without paying for the music.
>
> They are sharp with computers and electronics but
> ask
> them about academics and they do not answer. They
> do

need here word "not"

> They do not need to be dissapointed with Apple as >
they do not care
> what they do, they know that someone, somewhere is
> working to ensure that they can do other things >
that
> Apple did not want them to do.
>
> Regards,
>
> Antonio
> >
> > Users do that willingly though, and complain if
> > they're not able to be
> > ripped off in such ways. That is what RedHat is
> > fighting in the consumer
> > space, and why they aren't willing to invest
> > millions trying to appeal
> > to these people.
> >
> > --
> > fedora-list mailing list
> > fedora-list@redhat.com
> > To unsubscribe:
> >
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
>
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>
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> To unsubscribe:
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>

Regards,

Antonio


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Old 04-27-2008, 06:42 PM
Francis Earl
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

> Apparently some of the MP3 patents are supposedly
> dying out, but not so soon
>
> http://www.tunequest.org/a-big-list-of-mp3-patents/20070226/

I was under the impression they were expiring around 2010, thank you for
that link. The big one there is Alcatel-Lucent as they are the guys
really throwing their muscle around.

> As for the apple Ipod, and others they can get hacked
> and unpaid music can be placed onto them. I have some
> students that are very bright in this area, they put
> music onto cell phones without paying for the music.
> They are sharp with computers and electronics but ask
> them about academics and they do not answer. They do
> need to be dissapointed with Apple as they do not care
> what they do, they know that someone, somewhere is
> working to ensure that they can do other things that
> Apple did not want them to do.

While such things are always possible, it doesn't make it a good thing.
You can actually get your iPod working on your Linux box though, it is
the codecs and the related copyrights that are bad. Just because your
students get away with breaking the law, doesn't mean it would be smart
for RedHat to facilitate that...



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Old 04-27-2008, 06:44 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

--- Francis Earl <lunitik@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Apparently some of the MP3 patents are supposedly
> > dying out, but not so soon
> >
> >
>
http://www.tunequest.org/a-big-list-of-mp3-patents/20070226/
>
> I was under the impression they were expiring around
> 2010, thank you for
> that link. The big one there is Alcatel-Lucent as
> they are the guys
> really throwing their muscle around.
>
> > As for the apple Ipod, and others they can get
> hacked
> > and unpaid music can be placed onto them. I have
> some
> > students that are very bright in this area, they
> put
> > music onto cell phones without paying for the
> music.
> > They are sharp with computers and electronics but
> ask
> > them about academics and they do not answer. They
> do
> > need to be dissapointed with Apple as they do not
> care
> > what they do, they know that someone, somewhere is
> > working to ensure that they can do other things
> that
> > Apple did not want them to do.
>
> While such things are always possible, it doesn't
> make it a good thing.
> You can actually get your iPod working on your Linux
> box though, it is
> the codecs and the related copyrights that are bad.
> Just because your
> students get away with breaking the law, doesn't
> mean it would be smart
> for RedHat to facilitate that...>
Agreed

>
>
>
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