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Old 04-27-2008, 03:30 AM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Francis Earl wrote:

On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 15:45 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
Of course there is: provide a stable interface for drivers and cooperate
with instead of subverting the vendors that try to improve your product.


This has already happened. Greg Kroah-Hartman is leading up work to
ensure it, however they still will not cater to proprietary venders.


An interface is agnostic to what is on the other side, which is the
point of it being an interface. And going out of your way to not work
with certain others is anticompetitive behavior.


Industry can only rape users if there is no competition. Users choose
what they buy. The way to help them is to increase the available choices.


There are plenty of choices out there, users don't investigate choices
though, they go with whatever is cheaper, or whatever their friends and
co-workers are using.


There are no choices that include GPL'd code and code that can't be
redistributed under the same terms in a combined work - pretty much by
definition. That's made more money for the monopoly than any of their
own marketing moves.




Red Hat is a multi-billion dollar company today because it stood by its
beliefs, Microsoft is running scared, and are in Asia right now begging
the Chinese government to pay for Linux so that software doesn't become
entirely valueless.


I'm sure MS understands perfectly why Linux can't include everything.


Why cater to the companies that don't get it yet just because users
whine and run to a distro that does cater to them?


You can't choose to cater/not cater. You either present a usable
interface and give the user the freedom to decide what to put on the
other side, or you don't. The rest is just side effects.


> They're still

reporting bugs on FOSS software, they're still working on FOSS code, who
cares. Let those with a vested interest in Linux do what they think is
right, and let the Ubuntu's of the world that just package the result
worry about trying to get Linux onto your Mom's desktop.


The particular details of what makes one users system work today aren't
the point. The point is whether the user is free to use any components
or not.


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Old 04-27-2008, 06:32 AM
Tim
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 17:27 -0700, Les wrote:
> Or do you remember Wordstar which was a word processing program which
> had a working model where you never had to take your fingers off the
> home row (it was used by at least 199 professional Authors, as well as
> many hundreds of educators)

On the world scale, even on a national scale, that sounds like a very
small number. I'm not sure that it help it be a defining point of your
argument.

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Old 04-27-2008, 07:04 AM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Les Mikesell wrote:



There are no choices that include GPL'd code and code that can't be
redistributed under the same terms in a combined work - pretty much by
definition.


A aggregate does not require the same or compatible licensing terms.
Copyright laws and hence GPL does cannot limit that. You can very well
distribute and combine distinct (non linked) GPL and GPL incompatible
code and distribute the end result. All mainstream Linux distributions
have several GPL compatible and incompatible licenses in the end product.


http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing

Rahul



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Old 04-27-2008, 08:50 AM
Alan Cox
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:34:09 +0530
Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Les Mikesell wrote:
>
> >
> > There are no choices that include GPL'd code and code that can't be
> > redistributed under the same terms in a combined work - pretty much by
> > definition.
>
> A aggregate does not require the same or compatible licensing terms.
> Copyright laws and hence GPL does cannot limit that. You can very well
> distribute and combine distinct (non linked) GPL and GPL incompatible

Be careful of using the word "linked" as people sometimes interpret that
as "linked" in programming not general terms.

Alan

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Old 04-27-2008, 09:21 AM
Francis Earl
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 22:30 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
> An interface is agnostic to what is on the other side, which is the
> point of it being an interface. And going out of your way to not work
> with certain others is anticompetitive behavior.

You don't seem to get it, GNU was founded on certain beliefs, and just
because those beliefs are now entering the mainstream does NOT mean
RedHat and other strong believers should reverse their decisions.

Take a look at http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Members to see how
anti-competitive Linux is in the tech industry. Anyone that wants in can
contribute and have a say in the direction of it... No one owns Linux,
all you have to do is play by the rules.

> You can't choose to cater/not cater. You either present a usable
> interface and give the user the freedom to decide what to put on the
> other side, or you don't. The rest is just side effects.

I'll remind you it's ILLEGAL to have non-free code link against GPL
code. The price you pay for that is that you get drivers a little late,
oh well. Windows users have been perfectly fine using a system that
doesn't even support their hardware out of the box. No one is suing ATI
or Nvidia, but they are some of companies not abiding by the rules. DRI
is working as fast as they can though to create a good story despite
that.

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Old 04-27-2008, 11:29 AM
Da Rock
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 10:35 -0400, max wrote:
> Da Rock wrote:
> > On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 09:58 -0700, BRUCE STANLEY wrote:
> >>
> >> Rex Dieter <rdieter@math.unl.edu> wrote:
> >> Paul Shaffer wrote:
> >>
> >> > This is the attitude that will eventually marginalize Fedora
> >> into a
> >> > non-issue:
> >>
> >> I humbly disagree. There's a right and a wrong way to do
> >> things, and I'm
> >> glad fedora chooses to take the higher-ground.
> >>
> >> -- Rex
> >>
> >>
> >> Taking the higher ground means keeping your feet dry.
> >>
> >> But if you want help/rescue the drowning user
> >> (e.g. Laptop users, some desktoppers), you have to be willing to
> >> get your feet wet! :-)
> >
> > Indeed. And even by your count thats a handful versus the world in
> > computing... I'd say thats marginalized.
> >
> What's with the defeatist attitude?still harboring bitterness against
> M$? Forget M$!
>

No, I am by no means a defeatist.

I mean marginalized against every other platform and distro out there-
including unix. Hell, even FreeBSD (another completely free software
organisation) makes it easier to access the software people want.
Getting it to operate correctly is another matter... but at least it is
made available easily to the end user.

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Old 04-27-2008, 11:34 AM
Da Rock
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 10:44 -0400, max wrote:
> Da Rock wrote:
> > On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 11:39 -0600, Robin Laing wrote:
> >> Alastair Neil wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com
> >>> <mailto:wayward4now@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 13:05 -0700, Francis Earl wrote:
> >>> > That article ENTIRELY got it wrong. All RedHat said was they won't be
> >>> > pushing Linux on the consumer desktop for some time. They make their
> >>> > money from servers, and they are a company, so it's not in their best
> >>> > interest to have a product they aren't profiting from.
> >>>
> >>> OTOH, as I've said for years, desktops beget servers. Who in their right
> >>> mind would have ever thought that Windows would become a choice as a
> >>> server platform?? The Windows3.1 users got used to the desktop and it
> >>> rolled from there. Disregard the desktops of college entry level users,
> >>> and they'll migrate with their favorite platform and comfort level to
> >>> using it to admin their future server needs. What's not to understand in
> >>> this? RedHat could very well be blowing their lead and not seeing it
> >>> until too late in the game to recover.
> >>>
> >>> We (RH) used to have college programs all over the place ...usually
> >>> promoted as install fests at Universities. I haven't heard of one in the
> >>> press for years now. Servers are where the money is, no doubt. But, it
> >>> is better IMHO to have the future admins loyalty through the user
> >>> desktop by catering to them. I spent years in Marketing. I learned to
> >>> never EVER disregard the little guy. He might become the next purchasing
> >>> agent and/or decision maker. My two cents, Ric
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> An where has it got Microsoft? 20 years and countless billions invested
> >>> in marketing and they still manage only 30% of the server market.
> >>>
> >>> True, Novel lost out to WinNT in part because users got used to the
> >>> Windows interface and wanted a similar experience for managing their
> >>> servers. I refuse to believe that there is such a gulf between Ubuntu
> >>> and RHEL in functionality that users would have the same visceral
> >>> reaction and defect in droves from RH to Ubuntu - because they love
> >>> brown backgrounds on their Gnome desktops. Red Hat has focused its
> >>> desktop efforts on crafting a distribution that is best in class for
> >>> administering servers, just as SUSE is crafting a business productivity
> >>> centric desktop distribution with an emphasis on Windows
> >>> interoperability (thus Evolution, Mono/silverlight and "Don't Sue us
> >>> please Bill!" agreements). These distros have carved their own niches,
> >>> I don't as yet know what Ubuntu's niche is - windows malcontents? home
> >>> tinkerers/hobyists? Small Home Office? You could argue that this is
> >>> exactly the way linux started and who knows in 10 or 20 years maybe they
> >>> will have a significant enterprise share, however, I doubt it. Being
> >>> able to play MP3's out of the box rarely makes it onto a enterprise
> >>> server deployment specification.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> This is an interesting comment. Just a few days ago, I read an article
> >> about Microsoft pointing out companies that have moved from Linux
> >> servers due to the desktop support as well as gui management tools. Of
> >> course I hear that they are now adding more command line tools for
> >> administration due to demand.
> >>
> >> I see two aspects to this part of the debate.
> >>
> >> If people use Linux at work, they will be more likely to use it at home.
> >> They will use what they are familiar with. Most computer users are
> >> not that intelligent to using their computers. Some cannot even figure
> >> out how to update their computers.
> >>
> >> As for MS not getting a larger server share, this is a strange aspect.
> >> Part of the issue in the past has been many admins that new Unix found
> >> it easier to move to Linux from Solaris or other versions. The share of
> >> Windows servers from what I am reading is increasing. I see this as a
> >> result of the new point and click mentality. If you cannot click it,
> >> then you cannot manage it. Damn kids today.
> >>
> >
> > I know thats the mentality, but my god thats bullshit! I'll use cli
> > anyday for major tasks- try migrating stats support on a IIS server with
> > 400+ sites then you'll know!
> >
> >> FWIW, this thread has brought out many of the comments that have been
> >> stated in this article.
> >>
> >> Did Canonical Just Get Punked by Red Hat and Novell?
> >> http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2008/04/did-canonical-j.html
> >>
> >> Basically, the announcements are to support the server sales.
> >>
> >> I did like this comment though.
> >>
> >> "Curiously, very little attention was paid to Ron Hovespian's comments
> >> on Novell's similar plans, made before Red Hat's. If I were Novell, I
> >> would take this as a bad sign. Not only did the mainstream media not
> >> pick up on Novell's news, but even most of the hard-line Linux
> >> blogosphere wrote them off with nary so much as a "meh" And if you can't
> >> get those folks mad, you must be doing something wrong! "
> >>
> >> From the people that I know, the reason to move from Fedora is the
> >> upgrade path being easier. Longer support is appreciated. Some of
> >> these people are also old time Solaris users as well.
> >>
> >> I will stick with Fedora as long as I can get third party application
> >> that me and my family use. If they are only available on Ubuntu, then I
> >> will have to move.
> >
> > I think it comes down to ease of support as well. If support doesn't
> > keep up then the software is rendered useless. Ie MPlayer and codecs...
> >
> Obviously Fedora is not for the faint of heart.

No, unix is not for the faint of heart- Fedora could and should be made
easier to gain a greater share of platforms (and help reduce the zombies
on the net).

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Old 04-27-2008, 11:51 AM
Da Rock
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 09:24 -0700, Les wrote:

> CLI has an advantage because of the ability to express compound and
> unique capabilities using small tools.
> That particular capability has not made it to the "drag and click"
> crowd, not because it cannot be done, but because of a lack of vision in
> understanding what they are missing. The closest equivalent is the
> ability to create compound database relationships in Microsoft SQL with
> the GUI, but even there it is not well implemented. And you still have
> to use the keyboard to express some aspects of the process. And this is
> the major strength of UNIX, small programs that do one thing well,
> coupled with the ability to combine them with pipes, scripts and
> redirection to accomplish complex tasks with a minimum of effort. That
> is why most admins with experience in all kinds of systems generally
> support them via a CLI of one form or another. Additionally many of the
> tools and techniques of UNIX and other CLI systems have been expressed
> on other systems simply because they give the user that power.
>
> Point and click is faster for things you do repetitively on single
> items, CLI scripting, piping and redirection work better in a more
> flexible way to perform complex operations on a one time unique basis
> across a number of similar items, or for a really difficult complex task
> that must be done repetitively. These last two describe most of the
> Admin tasks. The first most user tasks. Additionally GUI's restrict
> input to only effective operations and minimize errors of entry, so they
> are making inroads to Admin tasks for things done less often that are
> prone to input errors, such as the add-user add-group and other
> occasional somewhat unique tasks done by Admins.
>
> Personally I am a programmer. I appreciate that some kinds of programs
> could or can currently be automated better with a GUI, but I also know
> that a GUI is limiting in some aspects, while freeing in others, and the
> issues for programmers is where does one become more valuable than the
> other. In other words, we need both tools and concepts to be the most
> effective in our class of work. I really like dabbling in the bits and
> stuff on unique things. I hate having to regenerate a "window
> application" in C code, and would much prefer to find a GUI that will
> create a good basic Window or two that I can then flush out with the
> appropriate code. One of the best things about GUI's I think are the
> "balloon hints", which can help you understand the "next step" or an
> error on the fly. These reduce debug times, increase my effectiveness
> and let me concentrate on the "good stuff" rather than on the mundane.
>
> But finding, or creating such tools is difficult, and finding the
> correct balance a truly mystifying task to a bit oriented guy like me.
>
> On Linux and networking and the bits for networking, I know the
> underlying formats, protocols and even a lot of the code, but I still
> don't have a good clear "big picture". To me it is like examining an
> elephant through a microscope. I know what the hair, hide, blood, and
> veins look like, but I have no concept of the elephant yet. (a bit of
> an exaggeration, but I am sure you get my drift).
>

Here! Here! I'll agree with that! Definitely me too- and a very good
analogy if I do say so myself...

> A gui that shows a network with my system, my router and my other local
> systems would help me see that. Balloon help to describe each bit and
> what it does would be even better, so I could mouse over the router, and
> it would bring up the router system window and tell me what it does.
> Mousing over the workstation would show me the required bits to make it
> work with the router as a menu, and each would then have a good
> explanation of how it interfaces to the rest of it. Then I could get a
> graphical view of the elephant.
>
> None of this network, admin stuff is difficult, it is just very complex
> by the number of bits that all have to be right to make it work
> effectively and without errors. As I tell my students in programming,
> there is no magic, just misunderstood technology. (and yes I know there
> is a quote about this or maybe three or four, but I didn't know that
> when I first started using the phrase in the 70's.)

So here I have a question: do you teach programming? At what level-
shell, C, or assembler?

If so, what text books do you use to teach (or recommend)? (even if it
is assembler...)

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Old 04-27-2008, 12:11 PM
Da Rock
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 15:45 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Francis Earl wrote:
> >
> > There is nothing you can really do about nvidia and ati, nothing but
> > reverse engineer things, or force them to open up the specs.
>
> Of course there is: provide a stable interface for drivers and cooperate
> with instead of subverting the vendors that try to improve your product.
>
> > To answer your question, yes it does feel good being part of a minority
> > that asks "how are they able to get away with that?", and makes an
> > effort to ensure the industry can't rape users anymore.
>
> Industry can only rape users if there is no competition. Users choose
> what they buy. The way to help them is to increase the available choices.
>
> > It speaks more
> > loudly for the ignorance of society at large that these things are even
> > an issue.
>
> No, it means that you aren't addressing the real issue at all. The real
> problem is that Microsoft has no competition, and by working to ensure
> that Linux distributions cannot contain everything they need to be a
> competitor, you are helping them maintain their monopoly status and
> their ability to rape users.

Here, here. You have put more eloquently than any other on this list.

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Old 04-27-2008, 03:20 PM
Paul Shaffer
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

--- On Sat, 4/26/08, Francis Earl <lunitik@gmail.com> wrote:

>Why should they pay around $15 per user for software the user didn't pay for, just so they can play codecs that aren't relevant to the people making them their money?

It's called "mindshare." And since when do you define relevance for Redhat's customers? Sounds rather presumptuous, to me. You mention the mindshare concept later, but don't seem to understand it works both ways. And it's a huge advantage in a competitive marketplace.

>There are even legal ways to get codecs (fluendo) and other equally easy ways.

What's easy to you is not easy for the vast majority of users. Computer use for virtually everything these days is taken for granted. Computer knowledge about how they work should not be.

>Today, Linux is big business, and is really making strides even on the home desktop.

Ya think? Ok "strides" compared to what - the over 90% share M$ enjoys? Methinks we got alot more stridin' to do.

>...makes an effort to ensure the industry can't rape users anymore.

I suppose Redhat more prefers neglect to rape. Or maybe passive coercion. But this approach is doomed to failure as we've already seen by Ubuntu's success. Redhat's ability to ensure anything in this industry is doubtful and becoming less a factor all the time as long as they and people like you decry the "ignorant" society and people who can't add a repo. Fedora has become a niche oddity in the Linux distro field because they view the vast majority of potential users as scapegoats for some holier than thou OS delusion.


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