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Old 04-26-2008, 04:12 PM
"max bianco"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Antonio Olivares
<olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- Arthur Pemberton <pemboa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 11:22 PM, Antonio Olivares
> > <olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On adobe flash, you bring up an interesting
> > point, ads
> > > are everywhere, if adobe flash is not present,
> > you
> > > cannot do anything.
> >
> > You need to start visiting better sites. No good
> > website relies on
> > flash that heavily.
>
> Yes, but I have to visit "those sites" otherwise, I
> cannot read many messages and posts. I have tried
> adblockers, but they make the page load more slowly
> and at home, it makes it really a pain in the as*
>
> >
> >
> > > If some software is illegal, what will the big
> > guys do
> > > to a little guy? Will they sue me because I have
> > > nonfree stuff? What will they do to me? I can
> > see
> > > the logic for the big corporations and companies,
> > but
> > > for the little guys, the home users, it does not
> > make
> > > much sense.
> >
> > Who says it has to make sense? Big business sue
> > little guys all the time.
> You are right RIAA rings a bell. Question is why?
> do they go after someone who has next to nothing,
> instead of others who have more?
>
Because others who have more, have the resources to tie them up in
court for years.

Max

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Old 04-26-2008, 04:24 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

--- max bianco <maximilianbianco@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Antonio Olivares
> <olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > --- Arthur Pemberton <pemboa@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 11:22 PM, Antonio
> Olivares
> > > <olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > On adobe flash, you bring up an interesting
> > > point, ads
> > > > are everywhere, if adobe flash is not
> present,
> > > you
> > > > cannot do anything.
> > >
> > > You need to start visiting better sites. No
> good
> > > website relies on
> > > flash that heavily.
> >
> > Yes, but I have to visit "those sites" otherwise,
> I
> > cannot read many messages and posts. I have
> tried
> > adblockers, but they make the page load more
> slowly
> > and at home, it makes it really a pain in the as*
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > If some software is illegal, what will the
> big
> > > guys do
> > > > to a little guy? Will they sue me because I
> have
> > > > nonfree stuff? What will they do to me? I
> can
> > > see
> > > > the logic for the big corporations and
> companies,
> > > but
> > > > for the little guys, the home users, it does
> not
> > > make
> > > > much sense.
> > >
> > > Who says it has to make sense? Big business sue
> > > little guys all the time.
> > You are right RIAA rings a bell. Question is
> why?
> > do they go after someone who has next to nothing,
> > instead of others who have more?
> >
> Because others who have more, have the resources to
> tie them up in
> court for years.

Sad, but very true. Great explanation Max There
have to be more reasons, but this one is awesome.

>
> Max
>
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Old 04-26-2008, 04:24 PM
Les
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 16:31 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 11:39 -0600, Robin Laing wrote:
> > Alastair Neil wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com
> > > <mailto:wayward4now@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 13:05 -0700, Francis Earl wrote:
CLIP!!
> Servers are where the money is, no doubt. But, it
> > > is better IMHO to have the future admins loyalty through the user
> > > desktop by catering to them. I spent years in Marketing. I learned to
> > > never EVER disregard the little guy. He might become the next purchasing
> > > agent and/or decision maker. My two cents, Ric
> > >
> > >
> > > An where has it got Microsoft? 20 years and countless billions invested
> > > in marketing and they still manage only 30% of the server market.
> > >
CLIP!!
> Red Hat has focused its
> > > desktop efforts on crafting a distribution that is best in class for
> > > administering servers, just as SUSE is crafting a business productivity
> > > centric desktop distribution with an emphasis on Windows
> > > interoperability (thus Evolution, Mono/silverlight and "Don't Sue us
> > > please Bill!" agreements). These distros have carved their own niches,
> > > I don't as yet know what Ubuntu's niche is - windows malcontents? home
> > > tinkerers/hobyists? Small Home Office? You could argue that this is
> > > exactly the way linux started and who knows in 10 or 20 years maybe they
> > > will have a significant enterprise share, however, I doubt it. Being
> > > able to play MP3's out of the box rarely makes it onto a enterprise
> > > server deployment specification.
CLIP!!
> > This is an interesting comment. Just a few days ago, I read an article
> > about Microsoft pointing out companies that have moved from Linux
> > servers due to the desktop support as well as gui management tools. Of
> > course I hear that they are now adding more command line tools for
> > administration due to demand.
> >
> > I see two aspects to this part of the debate.
> >
> > If people use Linux at work, they will be more likely to use it at home.
> > They will use what they are familiar with. Most computer users are
> > not that intelligent to using their computers. Some cannot even figure
> > out how to update their computers.
> >
> > As for MS not getting a larger server share, this is a strange aspect.
> > Part of the issue in the past has been many admins that new Unix found
> > it easier to move to Linux from Solaris or other versions. The share of
> > Windows servers from what I am reading is increasing. I see this as a
> > result of the new point and click mentality. If you cannot click it,
> > then you cannot manage it. Damn kids today.
> >
>
> I know thats the mentality, but my god thats bullshit! I'll use cli
> anyday for major tasks- try migrating stats support on a IIS server with
> 400+ sites then you'll know!
>
CLIP!!
> keep up then the software is rendered useless. Ie MPlayer and codecs...
>
I cut out some of the amplifying stuff, just to get a bit more
compact...
CLI has an advantage because of the ability to express compound and
unique capabilities using small tools.
That particular capability has not made it to the "drag and click"
crowd, not because it cannot be done, but because of a lack of vision in
understanding what they are missing. The closest equivalent is the
ability to create compound database relationships in Microsoft SQL with
the GUI, but even there it is not well implemented. And you still have
to use the keyboard to express some aspects of the process. And this is
the major strength of UNIX, small programs that do one thing well,
coupled with the ability to combine them with pipes, scripts and
redirection to accomplish complex tasks with a minimum of effort. That
is why most admins with experience in all kinds of systems generally
support them via a CLI of one form or another. Additionally many of the
tools and techniques of UNIX and other CLI systems have been expressed
on other systems simply because they give the user that power.

Point and click is faster for things you do repetitively on single
items, CLI scripting, piping and redirection work better in a more
flexible way to perform complex operations on a one time unique basis
across a number of similar items, or for a really difficult complex task
that must be done repetitively. These last two describe most of the
Admin tasks. The first most user tasks. Additionally GUI's restrict
input to only effective operations and minimize errors of entry, so they
are making inroads to Admin tasks for things done less often that are
prone to input errors, such as the add-user add-group and other
occasional somewhat unique tasks done by Admins.

Personally I am a programmer. I appreciate that some kinds of programs
could or can currently be automated better with a GUI, but I also know
that a GUI is limiting in some aspects, while freeing in others, and the
issues for programmers is where does one become more valuable than the
other. In other words, we need both tools and concepts to be the most
effective in our class of work. I really like dabbling in the bits and
stuff on unique things. I hate having to regenerate a "window
application" in C code, and would much prefer to find a GUI that will
create a good basic Window or two that I can then flush out with the
appropriate code. One of the best things about GUI's I think are the
"balloon hints", which can help you understand the "next step" or an
error on the fly. These reduce debug times, increase my effectiveness
and let me concentrate on the "good stuff" rather than on the mundane.

But finding, or creating such tools is difficult, and finding the
correct balance a truly mystifying task to a bit oriented guy like me.

On Linux and networking and the bits for networking, I know the
underlying formats, protocols and even a lot of the code, but I still
don't have a good clear "big picture". To me it is like examining an
elephant through a microscope. I know what the hair, hide, blood, and
veins look like, but I have no concept of the elephant yet. (a bit of
an exaggeration, but I am sure you get my drift).

A gui that shows a network with my system, my router and my other local
systems would help me see that. Balloon help to describe each bit and
what it does would be even better, so I could mouse over the router, and
it would bring up the router system window and tell me what it does.
Mousing over the workstation would show me the required bits to make it
work with the router as a menu, and each would then have a good
explanation of how it interfaces to the rest of it. Then I could get a
graphical view of the elephant.

None of this network, admin stuff is difficult, it is just very complex
by the number of bits that all have to be right to make it work
effectively and without errors. As I tell my students in programming,
there is no magic, just misunderstood technology. (and yes I know there
is a quote about this or maybe three or four, but I didn't know that
when I first started using the phrase in the 70's.)

Regards,
Les H

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Old 04-26-2008, 04:45 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Craig White wrote:

It was never part of the kernel - just a victim of the ever-changing
Linux interfaces. There were eventually patches to fix it, but fedora
never bothered to pick them up or even add openvpn which would have been
a usable replacement.

----
been so long that I have forgotten the reason but I know that it was
simultaneous to migration to 2.6 kernel that occurred with FC2.

anyway...openvpn is indeed available...


I guess I gave up looking for it after only a few years...

---
the impatience of youth...


Remote offices have this thing about not liking to be down for years.


As someone who used cipe way back when, I found it rather trivial to
build openvpn from source and install it so I wasn't much put out
anyway. Then of course, simultaneous with 2.6 kernels, we got openswan
support.


That's fine for 'your' box. What do you do about the rest of the mesh?
There's one under a desk somewhere in Switzerland that's still routing
through one of my RH 7.3 systems. The guy who drove over from London to
build it no longer works for the company. And IPsec is difficult or
impossible to run through NAT which we have at both ends.



Sometimes I think you just bitch for the sake of bitching.


In this case I brought it up as the counterpoint to someone who said
that proprietary software could be abandoned and leave you hanging.
That's not unique to proprietary software, and even if it were it's not
an OS distribution's business to protect you from it other than by
making it easy to use alternatives. Likewise, I'll bring up linux
firewire support compared the Mac's anytime someone tries to say that
proprietary drivers are always bad. It's not about bitching so much as
a reality check for other people's lies supporting their own agendas.


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Old 04-26-2008, 05:04 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Alan Cox wrote:
That's hardly unique to proprietary software. I once relied heavily on
CIPE as a VPN, but FC2 just dumped it with no replacement. Yes, I could
have kept all the broken pieces of the source code...

----
wasn't the cipe code dropped from the 2.6 kernel?


It was if I remember rightly never in the base kernel. It died because it
was demonstrated to have significant crypto/security weaknesses that were
not trivially fixable.



Dropping it was probably the right thing to do in the long run, but a
company with any commitment to their users would have shipped it for one
more release along with an equally integrated (remember, cipe had
fill-in-the-form setup in the system network tool) and equally versatile
(IPsec won't work in all the same scenarios) replacement so existing
connections could be switched gracefully without needing extra machines
to keep both running concurrently until everything was converted.


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Old 04-26-2008, 05:08 PM
Paul Shaffer
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

If Redhat's legal staff spent half the time finding ways to make things doable instead of playing the "just say no" game, most of these problems we speak of would become administrivia instead of broken systems.

But then again, it's more righteous to "take the high ground" not to mention easier and less costly.

--- On Sat, 4/26/08, Antonio Olivares <olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:

The legal staff is the one that recommends that Fedora
do this to avoid potential lawsuits and to restrict
certain stuff from happening.
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Old 04-26-2008, 05:17 PM
Steve Searle
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Around 06:08pm on Saturday, April 26, 2008 (UK time), Paul Shaffer scrawled:

<some html>

Please post in plain text.

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A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting a bad thing?

18:15:03 up 26 days, 20:16, 1 user, load average: 0.05, 0.07, 0.02
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Old 04-26-2008, 05:19 PM
Craig White
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 11:45 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Craig White wrote:
>
> >>>>> It was never part of the kernel - just a victim of the ever-changing
> >>>> Linux interfaces. There were eventually patches to fix it, but fedora
> >>>> never bothered to pick them up or even add openvpn which would have been
> >>>> a usable replacement.
> >>> ----
> >>> been so long that I have forgotten the reason but I know that it was
> >>> simultaneous to migration to 2.6 kernel that occurred with FC2.
> >>>
> >>> anyway...openvpn is indeed available...
> >>
> >> I guess I gave up looking for it after only a few years...
> > ---
> > the impatience of youth...
>
> Remote offices have this thing about not liking to be down for years.
----
thankfully there are people with vision and knowledge that can navigate
these troubled waters.
----
> > Sometimes I think you just bitch for the sake of bitching.
>
> In this case I brought it up as the counterpoint to someone who said
> that proprietary software could be abandoned and leave you hanging.
> That's not unique to proprietary software, and even if it were it's not
> an OS distribution's business to protect you from it other than by
> making it easy to use alternatives. Likewise, I'll bring up linux
> firewire support compared the Mac's anytime someone tries to say that
> proprietary drivers are always bad. It's not about bitching so much as
> a reality check for other people's lies supporting their own agendas.
----
ah but you're missing one teensy, weensy bit of information here...that
you actually have the source code so you can continue to use it even
when it becomes orphaned. With proprietary software, you don't have the
source code, you cannot rebuild it when the OS changes, you cannot fix
bugs, you are left completely out to dry. What you're really complaining
about is that Fedora stopped packaging cipe but that never precluded you
from packaging it yourself and maintaining it yourself.

I think you need to talk to Real World Accounting users in order to
consider the real ramifications when the proprietary software you are
using ceases to exist to get real perspective. If Microsoft succeeds in
taking over Yahoo...you're likely to see the vaporization of Zimbra. The
dangers of committing to proprietary software should never be
diminished.

I recognize your point about firewire but it has worked for me whenever
I used my combo firewire/usb hard drive and my earlier iPod which used
firewire. I do recall reading about some issues with firewire but never
had to confront them directly so I can't say that I noticed. I think the
firewire issue is somewhat off point.

Craig

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Old 04-26-2008, 05:25 PM
Paul Shaffer
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Ah yes - the crux of the matter.* May we also recognize that the "faint of heart" also represents somewhere around 99% of "potential" users?* Even as some portion of the remaining 1% of the less faint seem unhappy?

Feel good belonging to such a small, elite minority that shrinks further every day?

--- On Sat, 4/26/08, max <maximilianbianco@gmail.com> wrote:
From: max <maximilianbianco@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves
To: "For users of Fedora" <fedora-list@redhat.com>
Date: Saturday, April 26, 2008, 8:44 AM

Obviously Fedora is not for the faint of heart.

Max

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Old 04-26-2008, 05:40 PM
Craig White
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 10:25 -0700, Paul Shaffer wrote:
> Ah yes - the crux of the matter. May we also recognize that the
> "faint of heart" also represents somewhere around 99% of "potential"
> users? Even as some portion of the remaining 1% of the less faint
> seem unhappy?
>
> Feel good belonging to such a small, elite minority that shrinks
> further every day?
>
----
Ubuntu might be more to your liking.

Please post in plain text

Craig

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