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Old 04-26-2008, 05:16 AM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Arthur Pemberton wrote:

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 11:22 PM, Antonio Olivares
<olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:

On adobe flash, you bring up an interesting point, ads
are everywhere, if adobe flash is not present, you
cannot do anything.


You need to start visiting better sites. No good website relies on
flash that heavily.


Where's the non-flash content equivalent to http://www.hulu.com?

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Old 04-26-2008, 05:26 AM
Craig White
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 00:16 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 11:22 PM, Antonio Olivares
> > <olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On adobe flash, you bring up an interesting point, ads
> >> are everywhere, if adobe flash is not present, you
> >> cannot do anything.
> >
> > You need to start visiting better sites. No good website relies on
> > flash that heavily.
>
> Where's the non-flash content equivalent to http://www.hulu.com?
----
It's scary how ubiquitous flash has become.

Flashblock is your friend...I can't say it enough.

Craig

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Old 04-26-2008, 05:32 AM
"max bianco"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 12:46 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
> max bianco wrote:
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > That is why these licenses, and the subject of libre or free
> software is
> > > > >
> > > > important.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Following standards is what is important and what prevents it from
> being a
> > > problem when you switch components. The version that fedora ships is a
> > > non-standard one. They aren't doing anyone any favors by making it
> > > difficult to use the real one.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > May i ask why you use Fedora if its such a royal pain in the ass?
> >
>
> I haven't actually installed a version since FC6 - I just keep my eye on it
> because Centos eventually tends to inherit its mistakes.
>
> --
Brilliant.

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Old 04-26-2008, 05:37 AM
"max bianco"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Craig White <craigwhite@azapple.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 00:16 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
> > Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 11:22 PM, Antonio Olivares
> > > <olivares14031@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> On adobe flash, you bring up an interesting point, ads
> > >> are everywhere, if adobe flash is not present, you
> > >> cannot do anything.
> > >
> > > You need to start visiting better sites. No good website relies on
> > > flash that heavily.
> >
> > Where's the non-flash content equivalent to http://www.hulu.com?
> ----
> It's scary how ubiquitous flash has become.
>
> Flashblock is your friend...I can't say it enough.
>
> Craig
>
I hate flash!! I removed it and so far I haven't regretted it, though
i may yet but i doubt it. I have removed a gaping security hole,
killed half the ads that annoy me to no end, have a lighter by one
package install of fedora, and have moved a step closer to being free
of proprietary software!! Not bad for a minute's work.

Max

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Old 04-26-2008, 05:40 AM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Craig White wrote:

On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 23:56 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:

Craig White wrote:

But that is the problem. The folks with proprietary want to limit your
use to only the systems they have chosen to support, thus you can end up
with instruments or software that you have purchased that will not run
when the OS changes.
That's hardly unique to proprietary software. I once relied heavily on
CIPE as a VPN, but FC2 just dumped it with no replacement. Yes, I could
have kept all the broken pieces of the source code...

----
wasn't the cipe code dropped from the 2.6 kernel?

It was never part of the kernel - just a victim of the ever-changing
Linux interfaces. There were eventually patches to fix it, but fedora
never bothered to pick them up or even add openvpn which would have been
a usable replacement.

----
been so long that I have forgotten the reason but I know that it was
simultaneous to migration to 2.6 kernel that occurred with FC2.

anyway...openvpn is indeed available...



I guess I gave up looking for it after only a few years...

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Old 04-26-2008, 06:22 AM
Da Rock
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 09:58 -0700, BRUCE STANLEY wrote:
>
>
> Rex Dieter <rdieter@math.unl.edu> wrote:
> Paul Shaffer wrote:
>
> > This is the attitude that will eventually marginalize Fedora
> into a
> > non-issue:
>
> I humbly disagree. There's a right and a wrong way to do
> things, and I'm
> glad fedora chooses to take the higher-ground.
>
> -- Rex
>
>
> Taking the higher ground means keeping your feet dry.
>
> But if you want help/rescue the drowning user
> (e.g. Laptop users, some desktoppers), you have to be willing to
> get your feet wet! :-)

Indeed. And even by your count thats a handful versus the world in
computing... I'd say thats marginalized.

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Old 04-26-2008, 06:24 AM
Da Rock
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 13:14 -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> Rex Dieter wrote:
> > I humbly disagree. There's a right and a wrong way to do things,
> > and I'm glad fedora chooses to take the higher-ground.
>
> I'll drink to that, Rex.
>
> It reminds me of a George Bernard Shaw quote:
>
> "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
> persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all
> progress depends on the unreasonable man."
>
> If no one insisted on getting things upstreamed (modules, patches,
> etc), the upstream projects would not be as good as they are today.
> Fedora's upstream mantra is a damn good thing IMO.

Doesn't anybody understand the art of war? You need to attack from both
sides of this issue- and sometimes one part will need to hold a position
while reinforcements catch up.

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Old 04-26-2008, 06:31 AM
Da Rock
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 11:39 -0600, Robin Laing wrote:
> Alastair Neil wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com
> > <mailto:wayward4now@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 13:05 -0700, Francis Earl wrote:
> > > That article ENTIRELY got it wrong. All RedHat said was they won't be
> > > pushing Linux on the consumer desktop for some time. They make their
> > > money from servers, and they are a company, so it's not in their best
> > > interest to have a product they aren't profiting from.
> >
> > OTOH, as I've said for years, desktops beget servers. Who in their right
> > mind would have ever thought that Windows would become a choice as a
> > server platform?? The Windows3.1 users got used to the desktop and it
> > rolled from there. Disregard the desktops of college entry level users,
> > and they'll migrate with their favorite platform and comfort level to
> > using it to admin their future server needs. What's not to understand in
> > this? RedHat could very well be blowing their lead and not seeing it
> > until too late in the game to recover.
> >
> > We (RH) used to have college programs all over the place ...usually
> > promoted as install fests at Universities. I haven't heard of one in the
> > press for years now. Servers are where the money is, no doubt. But, it
> > is better IMHO to have the future admins loyalty through the user
> > desktop by catering to them. I spent years in Marketing. I learned to
> > never EVER disregard the little guy. He might become the next purchasing
> > agent and/or decision maker. My two cents, Ric
> >
> >
> > An where has it got Microsoft? 20 years and countless billions invested
> > in marketing and they still manage only 30% of the server market.
> >
> > True, Novel lost out to WinNT in part because users got used to the
> > Windows interface and wanted a similar experience for managing their
> > servers. I refuse to believe that there is such a gulf between Ubuntu
> > and RHEL in functionality that users would have the same visceral
> > reaction and defect in droves from RH to Ubuntu - because they love
> > brown backgrounds on their Gnome desktops. Red Hat has focused its
> > desktop efforts on crafting a distribution that is best in class for
> > administering servers, just as SUSE is crafting a business productivity
> > centric desktop distribution with an emphasis on Windows
> > interoperability (thus Evolution, Mono/silverlight and "Don't Sue us
> > please Bill!" agreements). These distros have carved their own niches,
> > I don't as yet know what Ubuntu's niche is - windows malcontents? home
> > tinkerers/hobyists? Small Home Office? You could argue that this is
> > exactly the way linux started and who knows in 10 or 20 years maybe they
> > will have a significant enterprise share, however, I doubt it. Being
> > able to play MP3's out of the box rarely makes it onto a enterprise
> > server deployment specification.
> >
> >
> >
>
> This is an interesting comment. Just a few days ago, I read an article
> about Microsoft pointing out companies that have moved from Linux
> servers due to the desktop support as well as gui management tools. Of
> course I hear that they are now adding more command line tools for
> administration due to demand.
>
> I see two aspects to this part of the debate.
>
> If people use Linux at work, they will be more likely to use it at home.
> They will use what they are familiar with. Most computer users are
> not that intelligent to using their computers. Some cannot even figure
> out how to update their computers.
>
> As for MS not getting a larger server share, this is a strange aspect.
> Part of the issue in the past has been many admins that new Unix found
> it easier to move to Linux from Solaris or other versions. The share of
> Windows servers from what I am reading is increasing. I see this as a
> result of the new point and click mentality. If you cannot click it,
> then you cannot manage it. Damn kids today.
>

I know thats the mentality, but my god thats bullshit! I'll use cli
anyday for major tasks- try migrating stats support on a IIS server with
400+ sites then you'll know!

> FWIW, this thread has brought out many of the comments that have been
> stated in this article.
>
> Did Canonical Just Get Punked by Red Hat and Novell?
> http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2008/04/did-canonical-j.html
>
> Basically, the announcements are to support the server sales.
>
> I did like this comment though.
>
> "Curiously, very little attention was paid to Ron Hovespian's comments
> on Novell's similar plans, made before Red Hat's. If I were Novell, I
> would take this as a bad sign. Not only did the mainstream media not
> pick up on Novell's news, but even most of the hard-line Linux
> blogosphere wrote them off with nary so much as a "meh" And if you can't
> get those folks mad, you must be doing something wrong! "
>
> From the people that I know, the reason to move from Fedora is the
> upgrade path being easier. Longer support is appreciated. Some of
> these people are also old time Solaris users as well.
>
> I will stick with Fedora as long as I can get third party application
> that me and my family use. If they are only available on Ubuntu, then I
> will have to move.

I think it comes down to ease of support as well. If support doesn't
keep up then the software is rendered useless. Ie MPlayer and codecs...

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Old 04-26-2008, 07:11 AM
Da Rock
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 00:03 +0200, Daniele Guazzoni wrote:
> I try to come back to the initial topic.
>
> I'm following since RedHat 5.0 (which I bought in a bookstore).
> As a network and security engineer the reason why to use Linux, BSD, ... but not Microsoft is pretty clear.
> I've just simply get pissed off (sorry for my rudeness) of apply updates to security holes twice a week...
> I know that the guys and girls in Redmond have evolved and their OS, from the security point of view, are now better then years ago but still...
>
> I have nothing against paying for a piece of software but I want it reliable and I still want to know what's running under my desk.
> I personally think that the RH approach (cutting-edge for free on Fedora and stable but licensed on RHEL) is absolutely ok.
> It should also be clear that at the end of the day they want to see money flowing in (and keep sponsoring Fedora).
>
> One of the greatest feature of Fedora is the strong community behind it.
> If suddenly RH decide to drop the workstation market don't you think that someone will pick up the challenge ?
> If you look back at the days RedHat Linux was for free there was only a handful developers and look at Fedora now !
>
> I partially agree with the "lazy" statement earlier in this discussion.
> How many of you has once in life compiled the source code and installed manually KDE or Gnome ?
> Meaning: yes there was a life without RPM !
> Maybe some of you lost the knowledge (or never realized) how Linux works, the way is set up, the inner-sanctum...
> Maybe some of you are used of insert a DVD, click a few time and have a system running in 15 minutes...
> Or simply some of you complains about bugs or missing features and forgets that you just downloaded it for free...
>
> Don't get me wrong, I also enjoy the easy-life of a graphical setup, wizards and system-tools but if I miss something I'm not lazy enough and I write some shell scripts or compile my own code.

I agree totally- which is what pisses me off about selinux: I like to
exactly whats going on.

The biggest problem nowadays is that if you compile the code you need to
know where to stick it and integrate it with all the other rpm loaded
stuff. Which is why I'd love to cross totally over to FreeBSD where
ports do a better job than rpms and I can compile whatever the hell I
want without causing issues about how to integrate.

I like control of my own systems- I believe a lot of linux is drawing
further away from that and more towards the M$ way...

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Old 04-26-2008, 09:23 AM
Alan Cox
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

> > That's hardly unique to proprietary software. I once relied heavily on
> > CIPE as a VPN, but FC2 just dumped it with no replacement. Yes, I could
> > have kept all the broken pieces of the source code...
> ----
> wasn't the cipe code dropped from the 2.6 kernel?

It was if I remember rightly never in the base kernel. It died because it
was demonstrated to have significant crypto/security weaknesses that were
not trivially fixable.

Alan

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