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Old 04-25-2008, 02:44 PM
Aaron Konstam
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 09:00 +0200, Andrew Kelly wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 10:49 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Steve Lindemann <steve@marmot.org>
> wrote:
> > > Ric Moore wrote:
> > >
> > > > Top posting is universally despised among Linux and Usenet users
> for
> > > > years and doing so is the mark of a newbie user who comes from a
> > > > Windows-centric background, where such things are condoned like
> having
> > > > drive letters instead of names.

I wish that were true. Top posting is standard on at least 2 or the
Linux computer professional lists I subscibe to. I tried to suggest a
change and was treated badly.
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Old 04-25-2008, 02:55 PM
"Arthur Pemberton"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:24 PM, gene horodecki <geneh@shaw.ca> wrote:
> I have Ubuntu installed on my main home PC + a thinkpad T42 laptop, and
> Fedora installed on another Thinkpad T42 laptop. I have to say, I wish
> I'd installed Fedora on my main PC as well. Fedora feels much more
> stable and robust to me then Ubuntu does. I think a lot of people like
> Ubuntu because they like Synaptec package manager. I've installed Yumex
> on Fedora and it does the exact same thing.
>
>
> On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 23:13 -0400, max bianco wrote:
>
>
> > I am as guilty as anyone of breaking the rules, its just fun to do
> > sometimes. I haven't been on this list very long but I try to do as
> > the romans do, in anycase lets do as the romans suggest and get back
> > on topic.
> >
> > Someone said that ubuntu was better or apparently better than Fedora.
> > I asked how and no one answered me. Now I am not saying that anyone
> > must answer me, but if someone can tell me that would be great because
> > i think i was the only one to question this statement, which implies
> > that everyone else agrees with it, which of course makes me wonder why
> > all of you use Fedora instead of ubuntu, or do you actually use
> > Fedora?


I maybe should point out my sig... my desktop is still on F7... not
because I don't trust F8, just haven't had any time...

On the plus side my desktop is inside my home LAN, and has no
noticeable bit rot.. so it serves my needs perfectly.

If someone would like to sponsor a poor college student a new mobo +
cpu dual core combo... i would happily accept it though.

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Old 04-25-2008, 05:47 PM
"max bianco"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:24 PM, gene horodecki <geneh@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > I have Ubuntu installed on my main home PC + a thinkpad T42 laptop, and
> > Fedora installed on another Thinkpad T42 laptop. I have to say, I wish
> > I'd installed Fedora on my main PC as well. Fedora feels much more
> > stable and robust to me then Ubuntu does. I think a lot of people like
> > Ubuntu because they like Synaptec package manager. I've installed Yumex
> > on Fedora and it does the exact same thing.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 23:13 -0400, max bianco wrote:
> >
> >
> > > I am as guilty as anyone of breaking the rules, its just fun to do
> > > sometimes. I haven't been on this list very long but I try to do as
> > > the romans do, in anycase lets do as the romans suggest and get back
> > > on topic.
> > >
> > > Someone said that ubuntu was better or apparently better than Fedora.
> > > I asked how and no one answered me. Now I am not saying that anyone
> > > must answer me, but if someone can tell me that would be great because
> > > i think i was the only one to question this statement, which implies
> > > that everyone else agrees with it, which of course makes me wonder why
> > > all of you use Fedora instead of ubuntu, or do you actually use
> > > Fedora?
>
>
> I maybe should point out my sig... my desktop is still on F7... not
> because I don't trust F8, just haven't had any time...
>
> On the plus side my desktop is inside my home LAN, and has no
> noticeable bit rot.. so it serves my needs perfectly.
>
> If someone would like to sponsor a poor college student a new mobo +
> cpu dual core combo... i would happily accept it though.
>
If only I had anything that new to spare. My mom gets buy with an
Emachine, one of first dual core P4's, I maxed out the RAM at 2gigs
and installed Werewolf. It purrs,like a kitten, but then she isn't a
power user either. My own is a dual core Athlon 4200 with 3gigs, also
running Werewolf, I built that about , oh , 18 - 24 months ago? sounds
right. It was right around the time the socket AM2 had just come out.
My sense of time is skewed, I usually don't remember what day of the
week it is ; ) I bought my girlfriend a laptop for her birthday and
put F8 on that too. My theory is that if i have to maintain it for
free then your running the OS of my choice! Plus I learn alot more
that way, though I expected to have to set up remote access to
administer my Mom's but she hasn't had any trouble out of it so I left
the ssh turned off and the remote desktop too. I get over there once a
week or so , now that I live close to home again. I'll tell you what
though, most of the cheap Vista boxes have at least 2 gb RAM now, and
your talking under $400 for the tower, by itself mind you, no
flatscreen or anything but definitely dual-core. I have a p3 w/512
ram test box I use on a regular basis for experimentation and an old
k6-2 266 or 300 MHz that runs FreeNAS for storage, i think it used to
belong to my sister but she's moved on to a Mac now. I will get her
running Linux of some kind sooner or later. My Dad doesn't have a
computer but he doesn't care, I want to setup a Linux media center
for him but first I need a decent box to get it running on, it'll
probably be awhile though. I've scrapped a couple of junkers, poor
things, just weren't worth the investment to keep them running. I can
probably still get some p3 boxes though for under $100 but only 256MB
RAM and a 10gb harddrive. Hardly media center quality. I got my F8 at
work too, she's a real trooper that box is, used and abused. Still
ticking and kicking!!

Max

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Old 04-25-2008, 05:51 PM
Timothy Selivanow
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 20:16 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Francis Earl wrote:
> > It has everything to do with legalities, as the source code for the
> > encoders/decoders is available.
>
> Not everything that fedora makes difficult is illegal. Sun Java, for
> one example, the drivers provided by the vendors of the hardware users
> have chosen to purchase for another.

(doing my part to move the thread back to some-what on topic...)

It *used*to* be illegal to redistribute Java without Sun in the middle
(still subject to interpretation). That is until Java6, when Sun made
the DLJ (https://jdk-distros.dev.java.net/developer.html) and made it
retro-active for Java5. That said, have you /read/ the DLJ? It's not
exactly a fertile ground for Fedora mission objectives.


E.g. (http://download.java.net/dlj/jdk/LICENSE) (from the FAQ section):

"""
16. If some program in my OS specifies the option -Xbootclasspath to
the java command, is that considered a breach of Section 2(c)?

We realize there is some confusion about this because the
documentation for the java command at
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/tooldocs/solaris/java.html
makes specific mention of the Binary Code License (BCL). The intent
of Section 2(c) is not to restrict what end user programs do with
command line options but rather to ensure that the Sun Java
platform is not used to create hybrid implementations with
alternate technologies, or mingle the JDK code with alternate
technologies so they run together.
"""

This along with FAQ section 14 make it sound like it excludes running
gcj and classpath. Fedora also bytecode compiles to platform specific
binaries, using, gcj.

FAQ Section 17 says that you *still* have to provide a click-through
license before installation to end users, at least notifying them of
the licensing.

There was also wording that sounded like you may not be able to break it
into pieces (distribution is subject to the wording in the included
README, from the FAQ Section 9: """it allows us to adjust the technical
details of what constitutes the "Software" and what parts may be
redistributed separately or omitted from a distribution without revising
the license itself."""), even the way that JPackage does it. JPackage
is not subject to the DLJ because they are not a distro. Furthermore
they provide nosrc RPMs which require users to still go through the Sun
click-through... which satisfies Sun.

Doesn't sound very libre to me...

Additionally, there are only *three* distros that have signed the DLJ:
Debian, Ubuntu (Mark helped Sun draft the DLJ, BTW), and Gentoo. RH has
a separate agreement to "distribute" (essentially the drop-in RPMs that
Sun provides) it with EL that is not subject to the DLJ.


Disclaimers:
1.) IANAL.
2.) I like libre software...fanatically even; I have no stake in this
otherwise, professionally or not.
3.) Any non-quoted portions are of my opinion and not a position of any
other entity.
4.) Any quoted portions were not intentionally misquoted.
5.) Any misrepresentation is purely through my ignorance or
misunderstanding.


--Tim
_______________________________________
/ And so it was, later,
| As the miller told his tale, |
| That her face, at first just ghostly, |
| Turned a whiter shade of pale. |
-- Procol Harum /
---------------------------------------


/
( )
.( o ).

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Old 04-25-2008, 05:55 PM
"Arthur Pemberton"
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 12:47 PM, max bianco <maximilianbianco@gmail.com> wrote:
> If only I had anything that new to spare.

That's cool

> put F8 on that too. My theory is that if i have to maintain it for
> free then your running the OS of my choice!

That's more than a theory to me, that's a rule, I've learned my lessons.


> computer but he doesn't care, I want to setup a Linux media center
> for him but first I need a decent box to get it running on, it'll

I have a Dell GX270 about ebay serving as my home server and mythtv
frontend. I would imagine I could add a tvcard and have it do
mythbackend as well

But it also handles mythmovies, mythmusic and fluxbox


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Old 04-25-2008, 06:04 PM
Timothy Selivanow
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 10:51 -0700, Timothy Selivanow wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 20:16 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
> > Francis Earl wrote:
> > > It has everything to do with legalities, as the source code for the
> > > encoders/decoders is available.
> >
> > Not everything that fedora makes difficult is illegal. Sun Java, for
> > one example, the drivers provided by the vendors of the hardware users
> > have chosen to purchase for another.

<removed my drivel>

Oh, in my heated rant, I also forgot to mention that it might also have
precluded FESCO decision on the ability to make spins...as *all* Fedora
derivatives (albeit only the ones that included Java) would also have to
sign the DLJ, which would make things more difficult and non-trivial to
make a spin.

"Oh, you'd like to make a spin and possibly add some functionality to
Fedora? Please sign these 3rd party documents. You agree to abide
by..."


I'm not even going to go into the hardware debate, as that was a
couple(?) of weeks ago already. I know where I stand, and I know where
you, Les, stand. I happen to agree with Fedora and I am OK with that.


--Tim
__________________________________
/ Knowledge is power.
-- Francis Bacon /
----------------------------------


/
( )
.( o ).

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Old 04-25-2008, 06:45 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

Timothy Selivanow wrote:


Not everything that fedora makes difficult is illegal. Sun Java, for
one example, the drivers provided by the vendors of the hardware users
have chosen to purchase for another.


(doing my part to move the thread back to some-what on topic...)

It *used*to* be illegal to redistribute Java without Sun in the middle
(still subject to interpretation).


And even then, there were ways to provide compatibility with RPM and the
quirky alternatives system even though the user had to supply his own
copy of the Sun code (the jpackage nosrc package...). That wasn't so
bad except for the jpackage repo being so generic that it took a while
to find the right instructions for this week's fedora version. Now,
fedora has broken all relationships with this repository without
supplying an alternative so you can spend all day trying to find the
right instructions and still not succeed. How can anyone believe that
is the right way to treat users?



That is until Java6, when Sun made
the DLJ (https://jdk-distros.dev.java.net/developer.html) and made it
retro-active for Java5. That said, have you /read/ the DLJ? It's not
exactly a fertile ground for Fedora mission objectives.


I have no interest in distributing java. I want to use it, and would
probably use it under fedora if it wasn't next to impossible.



There was also wording that sounded like you may not be able to break it
into pieces (distribution is subject to the wording in the included
README, from the FAQ Section 9: """it allows us to adjust the technical
details of what constitutes the "Software" and what parts may be
redistributed separately or omitted from a distribution without revising
the license itself."""), even the way that JPackage does it. JPackage
is not subject to the DLJ because they are not a distro. Furthermore
they provide nosrc RPMs which require users to still go through the Sun
click-through... which satisfies Sun.

Doesn't sound very libre to me...


But it's _my_ freedom that I want to protect, not your political agenda.
Why should I be interested in a distribution that makes it difficult
for me to make my own choices about whether a license is acceptable or
not? I don't have a problem with downloading my own copy of any
particular code from any particular place under any conditions that I
find acceptable. The problem is that fedora makes it exceptionally
difficult to install and run java instead of the non-standard versions
that it includes.



Additionally, there are only *three* distros that have signed the DLJ:
Debian, Ubuntu (Mark helped Sun draft the DLJ, BTW), and Gentoo. RH has
a separate agreement to "distribute" (essentially the drop-in RPMs that
Sun provides) it with EL that is not subject to the DLJ.


And that's a good reason to use those distributions, along with the
other user friendly things they have done.


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Old 04-26-2008, 12:12 AM
Thomas Cameron
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 18:08 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 14:29 -0700, Francis Earl wrote:
> > The only real benefits of Ubuntu are proprietary drivers by default, and
> > easier access to patent encumbered codecs... catering to users so much
> > is why Ubuntu is so popular... no other reason.
>
> How dare they offer something that users want :-)

Because users often want dumb things that fly in the face of Free/Open
Source Software. Fedora has a different mandate: real Freedom.
Ubuntu's mandate is "take the easy way, to Hell with the ethics of it."

Both have their place. I prefer the Fedora way, personally.

I think the Ubuntu way is also somewhat dangerous. Some day, somewhere
someone is going to be using some proprietary driver they got from
Ubuntu at work when they get audited by the BSA or some other anti-Linux
organization, and the company is going to receive massive fines.
Microsoft is going to crow from the roof tops about how evil Linux is.

Fedora offers a very pragmatic, straightforward method for getting those
codecs *legally* through Fluendo so that you don't have to take that
risk.

Also, Red Hat commits more to various upstream projects like the kernel,
gcc, glibc and so on than Ubuntu has ever even dreamed of.

To me, it's just smarter all the way around to use Fedora over Ubuntu.

But hey, that's just me.

As to the original topic, I don't think Red Hat has "abandoned" the
desktop market, I think that's what the media is trying to spin the
message as since that means more page views - controversy breeds
advertising revenue. I mean, if that were truly the case then none of
the fine Red Hat engineers who have worked on, for instance, GNOME,
would be doing that work. Wanna see Red Hat's involvement in desktop?
Look at GNOME for some clue:

rpm -qa --changelog gnome* | grep '@redhat.com'

Catch you later.

TC

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Old 04-26-2008, 01:58 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 17:47 +0930, Tim wrote:
> Tim:
> >> You should have been informed about this when you subscribed.
>
> Ric Moore:
> > Tim, I went to the subscribe area and didn't the the link nor the
> > suggestions listed there. Sacrileges! Ric
>
> On most other lists that I subscribe to, you get this kind of
> information when you subscribe as part of the process (on the
> subscription page, or the confirmation emails).
>
> I know you don't like "shoulds," but the subscription process really
> should provide usage information to the new subscriber as part of the
> process. It's rather hard for newcomers to know what's expected if they
> were never informed about it. And it's no good putting the information
> somewhere else that they haven't seen before, or during, subscribing.

This time this "should" should be allowed! I agree, when you get your
subscription confirmed notice, have the both the verbiage included in it
as well as the link in the subscribe page. Good ideas Tim. Ric

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Old 04-26-2008, 02:42 AM
Les
 
Default Fedora Desktop future- RedHat moves

On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 13:45 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Why should I be interested in a distribution that makes it
> difficult
> for me to make my own choices about whether a license is acceptable
> or
> not? I don't have a problem with downloading my own copy of any
> particular code from any particular place under any conditions that I
> find acceptable.
But that is the problem. The folks with proprietary want to limit your
use to only the systems they have chosen to support, thus you can end up
with instruments or software that you have purchased that will not run
when the OS changes. Furthermore their licenses forbid you from reverse
engineering the code to figure out how to make it work some where else,
and the owner of the proprietary OS won't let you do any reverse
engineering legally to figure out how to interface to the software or
hardware he/she/it chooses to no longer support. Thus you are obsoleted
with no legal recourse. Those lovely sites where you download such
utilities are often legally not clean to use either, depending upon the
laws that the various entities have seen fit to pass. Finally your own
documents, code and other encoded data may be unaccessable to you
either, because the formatting, encoding, encryption or compression may
be proprietary and non disclosed with the attendant no reverse
engineering clauses, leaving you without access even to your own
material.

That is why these licenses, and the subject of libre or free software is
important.

Regards,
Les H

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