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Old 10-03-2012, 08:30 AM
Fernando Cassia
 
Default Why graphics drivers are proprietary

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 10:52 PM, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:

(Remember, a sweatshop job is better than no job at

all if it pays more than you can get with no job at all even if it does

not meet some do-gooder's idea of "minimum wage.")

Can you leave your prejudice and misconceptions out of this list, please?. Since when is "minimum wage" socialism?. In fact social welfare laws and workers rights is what made capitalism improve the living standards of people, not sweatshops. In fact I find your veiled advocacy for sweatshops mildly disgusting.


Can we keep discussions technical?. Thanks.
FC
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:01 AM
Marko Vojinovic
 
Default Why graphics drivers are proprietary

On Tuesday, 2. October 2012. 18.52.10 jdow wrote:
> On 2012/10/02 13:17, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 2. October 2012. 20.56.34 Roberto Ragusa wrote:
> >> On 10/02/2012 03:45 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
> >>> Another factor is that the drivers may contain a lot of clever stuff. A
> >>> long time back one of the problems raised was that vendor A had the
> >>> better hardware but vendor B the better drivers. Vendor B's product won
> >>> all the benchmarks. If they open sourced it then vendor A would duly
> >>> have
> >>> borrowed all the software tricks and then won hands down.
> >>
> >> So final users would have had the best hardware running the best drivers
> >> (open source too).
> >> This is something which must not be permitted to happen. :-/
> >
> > That is one of the features of civilization based on capitalism --- the
> > target is to gain most money, and to make life miserable for the
> > competition. The actual needs of the end-users are completely irrelevant,
> > as long as your product sells more than the competitor's product. ;-)
>
> Without the capitalism the customer can expect zero improvement,
> particularly with hardware. What incentive would I as a person trying to
> make a living off clever video drivers to continue doing so? How would I
> put food on my table?
[snip rant about Communism]

How about government funding? There is a tried&tested scenario used for some
time now all over the world, say in science. For example:

* You need money, and you have some skill to do something better than others.
* You apply for a research&development project; if you have a good idea, you
get a grant.
* You use your knowledge to do something creative and useful. You share the
results of your work with everyone else (you're being paid by taxpayer money,
so this is fair).
* You apply for the next R&D project, and the next, and the next... You build
reputation according to your performance, and in time get bigger grants,
bigger money, etc.
* As a side-effect, you also get fame&glory (if you did something very useful),
respect by other people, etc., which can be a strong non-financial motivation
to continue to do even better.

This scenario is not optimized to make most money, but to make best quality
products. Others can build on your work and your knowledge, and you can build
on theirs. It's a model which promotes cooperation instead of competition.

Similar ideas work in the FOSS model for software development. ;-)

> If I know how to do something that people really want and can live
> comfortably on what I can earn doing this, by what right does anybody
> come in and tell me I have to share my know how with all and sundry
> so that I'm stuck cold and hungry because I can no longer earn money
> performing my unique service? That is the foundation if the concept of
> intellectual property.

Umm, no, what you are describing is called a "trade secret". And it is
completely ok, even necessary, to have trade secrects in the free market
scenario (as opposed to the government-funded R&D scenario that I described
above, where trade secrets are disfavored and disfunctional).

OTOH, "intellectual property" is the scenario where you tell everyone else
your trade secret, and then require everyone not to use that information for
their benefit, or otherwise you'll sue them in court or require them to pay you
royalties. I see no reason for that to exist, other than making more money
based on the abuse of the current legal system.

Best, :-)
Marko


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Old 10-03-2012, 09:18 AM
"Eddie G. O'Connor Jr."
 
Default Why graphics drivers are proprietary

On 10/02/2012 12:14 AM, Junayeed Ahnaf
wrote:




The header is self
explanatory. I always wonder what bad would it bring to the
vendor if they open source their graphics driver?

*

*

Thoughts?






Junayeed Ahnaf Nirjhor












If I had to hazard a guess?...I would say it more about money than
anything else. Especially in THIS day & age when the economic
landscape is bleak....and there's more "cloning" going on than
anything else....(Apple vs. Samsung?) even those hi-def TV's that
started out costing $3000.00 a pop are now...what?....like $600 at
WalMart?.....just the capitalistic "nature of the beast"....





EGO II



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Old 10-03-2012, 09:47 AM
Fernando Cassia
 
Default Why graphics drivers are proprietary

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 10:52 PM, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:

(Remember, a sweatshop job is better than no job at

all if it pays more than you can get with no job at all even if it does

not meet some do-gooder's idea of "minimum wage.")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo3eFp0I4Iw
FC
--

During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
- George Orwell


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Old 10-03-2012, 09:55 AM
jdow
 
Default Why graphics drivers are proprietary

On 2012/10/03 02:01, Marko Vojinovic wrote:

On Tuesday, 2. October 2012. 18.52.10 jdow wrote:

On 2012/10/02 13:17, Marko Vojinovic wrote:

On Tuesday, 2. October 2012. 20.56.34 Roberto Ragusa wrote:

On 10/02/2012 03:45 PM, Alan Cox wrote:

Another factor is that the drivers may contain a lot of clever stuff. A
long time back one of the problems raised was that vendor A had the
better hardware but vendor B the better drivers. Vendor B's product won
all the benchmarks. If they open sourced it then vendor A would duly
have
borrowed all the software tricks and then won hands down.


So final users would have had the best hardware running the best drivers
(open source too).
This is something which must not be permitted to happen. :-/


That is one of the features of civilization based on capitalism --- the
target is to gain most money, and to make life miserable for the
competition. The actual needs of the end-users are completely irrelevant,
as long as your product sells more than the competitor's product. ;-)


Without the capitalism the customer can expect zero improvement,
particularly with hardware. What incentive would I as a person trying to
make a living off clever video drivers to continue doing so? How would I
put food on my table?

[snip rant about Communism]

How about government funding? There is a tried&tested scenario used for some
time now all over the world, say in science. For example:


Then you get what the government says you will want not what you do want.
We saw that in Soviet Russia as a very glaring example.


* You need money, and you have some skill to do something better than others.
* You apply for a research&development project; if you have a good idea, you
get a grant.


Is this how you'd start Google, Twitter, or Facebook? My, how quaint.


* You use your knowledge to do something creative and useful. You share the
results of your work with everyone else (you're being paid by taxpayer money,
so this is fair).


Am I paid MORE if I produce something creative, whether or not the
government wants it? How about if customers want it and the government
does not, especially if the government does not want it?


* You apply for the next R&D project, and the next, and the next... You build
reputation according to your performance, and in time get bigger grants,
bigger money, etc.


You only get funding for what the government has declared the citizens
want. Can you imagine an iPhone designed by a government? My imagination
is not that strong.


* As a side-effect, you also get fame&glory (if you did something very useful),
respect by other people, etc., which can be a strong non-financial motivation
to continue to do even better.


Fame and glory is fun. Food is more important.

I *LIKE* the idea of sharing knowledge. But that like bruised its nose
and boobs when it ran head on into reality.


This scenario is not optimized to make most money, but to make best quality
products. Others can build on your work and your knowledge, and you can build
on theirs. It's a model which promotes cooperation instead of competition.


No, sir, it is optimized to produce what the commissars declare you will
build. And commissars seem to have a lamentable disconnect with the people
they own.


Similar ideas work in the FOSS model for software development. ;-)


Yeah, I've noticed. Why does FOSS critically lag with regards to what
the general public wants? Why isn't the desktop experience in Linux
NEAR as rich and good as on Macs or Windows machines? They're playing
catch up in most cases, particularly where there is an incentive to
keep information private because you can please more customers (and
make more income THAT way) than sharing the information. It's only in
the afterthoughts like email and browser features that Mozilla can
do a little better. (The only reason I use Mozilla is that it has
slightly better mail sorting capabilities. I'm too lazy to do that
with procmail or alternatives.)


If I know how to do something that people really want and can live
comfortably on what I can earn doing this, by what right does anybody
come in and tell me I have to share my know how with all and sundry
so that I'm stuck cold and hungry because I can no longer earn money
performing my unique service? That is the foundation if the concept of
intellectual property.


Umm, no, what you are describing is called a "trade secret". And it is
completely ok, even necessary, to have trade secrects in the free market
scenario (as opposed to the government-funded R&D scenario that I described
above, where trade secrets are disfavored and disfunctional).


Do you realize that you are contradicting your screed above? Video driver
software IS trade secret information, Kemo Sabe.


OTOH, "intellectual property" is the scenario where you tell everyone else
your trade secret, and then require everyone not to use that information for
their benefit, or otherwise you'll sue them in court or require them to pay you
royalties. I see no reason for that to exist, other than making more money
based on the abuse of the current legal system.


Information property is what you hold or control that others don't hold
or control. Trade secrets are information property, especially when
estimating the market value for a corporation. Often they are more
important than patents or copyrights. (And as a society, both the US and
the world, we are patenting and copyrighting things that never should be
patented or placed under copyright protection. But that is another rant.
This rant is about my giant urge to live well on the results of hard work.
I have tossed a few "throw-aways" into public domain or <shudder> GPL.
The Amiga File System partition parsing software in the Linux kernel
owes a fair amount to my work. I needed it for myself and it was easier
to have it in the kernel than to patch it in every time a new kernel
came around. Sharing it saved me time for other work that made money.)

{^_^}
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:58 AM
jdow
 
Default Why graphics drivers are proprietary

On 2012/10/03 02:47, Fernando Cassia wrote:



On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 10:52 PM, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net
<mailto:jdow@earthlink.net>> wrote:

(Remember, a sweatshop job is better than no job at
all if it pays more than you can get with no job at all even if it does
not meet some do-gooder's idea of "minimum wage.")


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo3eFp0I4Iw


I'll see you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxBzKkWo0mo

The idealistic solution often harms people more than the wretched
sweatshop. I gave up harming people for my idealism a LONG time
ago. I really don't get jollies out of harming people in general.

{^_-}
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:27 AM
Alan Cox
 
Default Why graphics drivers are proprietary

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 20:05:38 -0400
Mark LaPierre <marklapier@aol.com> wrote:

> On 10/02/2012 04:18 PM, Alan Evans wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Roberto Ragusa wrote:
> >> So final users would have had the best hardware running the best drivers
> >> (open source too).
> >> This is something which must not be permitted to happen. :-/
> >
> > Not if it helps to sell the competitor's hardware.
>
> Programmers, and corporations for that matter, have the right to decide
> how they choose to distribute their property.

Software is not property.

> Corporations are people too

Only in some broken countries but you are correct they still have to
survive.

Companies do open source seriously do it because it suits them for their
own purposes. Thats generally a good thing because self interest is a
great motivator and far better than the kind of sham token support from
many companies.

Free market economics sucks at finding optimal behaviour, it's just it
sucks less than most of the other models tried 8)

Alan
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:19 AM
Alan Cox
 
Default Why graphics drivers are proprietary

> Hw, if there is no incentive to do something, why bother to do it? That
> dirty rotten awful stinky evil capitalism provides the incentive. If I
> don't get something additional out of working hard, I don't work hard -
> indeed, why should I bother to work at all?

If nobody needs to work why bother. Read up on the economics of early
hunter gatherer societies. Read up on the lives of many of the rich
and successful. They'll be awfully relevant as the robots take over.

Executive summary though: people do stuff given the chance because it's
what humans are. There are many super rich people who don't just sit and
watch TV. A large amount of free software is written by people who aren't
paid to do it but who do it for "fun". Hunter/gatherers made stuff that
had no functional purpose because they had lots of spare time to just
enjoy life (if your environment supports it then it's way more time
efficient than agriculture).

Alan
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:39 PM
Roger
 
Default Why graphics drivers are proprietary

On 03/10/12 19:18, Eddie G. O'Connor
Jr. wrote:




On 10/02/2012 12:14 AM, Junayeed
Ahnaf wrote:



The header is self explanatory. I always wonder
what bad would it bring to the vendor if they open source
their graphics driver?

*

*

Thoughts?






Junayeed Ahnaf Nirjhor












If I had to hazard a guess?...I would say it more about money than
anything else. Especially in THIS day & age when the economic
landscape is bleak....and there's more "cloning" going on than
anything else....(Apple vs. Samsung?) even those hi-def TV's that
started out costing $3000.00 a pop are now...what?....like $600 at
WalMart?.....just the capitalistic "nature of the beast"....





EGO II







It's simply greed based on fear of loss.

Take the most famous examples of open sourcing. Blender3D, Ton and
his crew have triumphed with the movies they make being globally
acclaimed and a totally free system being used by some of the larger
organisations. They raise money by giving away everything and they
sell the complete movie with all the source files for a token sum so
that everyone benefits.

Take Guido and Python, Matz and Ruby, these among some of the more
famous people in the computer industry. Are any of the programmers
in Apple or Microsoft so well known?

Drupal, Gimp, and the list goes on. It is only fear of loss of
something which they do not really own that prohibits.

Roger





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Old 10-03-2012, 01:11 PM
Tim
 
Default Why graphics drivers are proprietary

On Wed, 2012-10-03 at 02:55 -0700, jdow wrote:
> Why does FOSS critically lag with regards to what the general public
> wants?

Does it really? Whether it's open source projects, or proprietary
business, *you* get given what *they* think is the way to do it.

> Why isn't the desktop experience in Linux NEAR as rich and good as on
> Macs or Windows machines?

Again, I question whether that's really the case.

Yes, from time to time, you will notice that one is better than the
other, sometimes quite significantly. But there's been plenty of cases
where I've felt the Linux was has been quicker, more logical, less
annoying, more flexible.

Just to be more clear, what I consider the desktop experience is how the
actual desktop interface works, the system GUI. i.e. can I right-click
it, can I add features to the right click, can I change the look or the
behaviour, can I copy and paste any text that appears anywhere on the
screen, can I resize every single window that pops up, does the
interface get in the way, etc.

I do not refer to the range of *extra* programs that you can run on your
computer (e.g. someone's idea that Microsoft Office is better than
OpenOffice.org). They're not *the* desktop.



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