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-   -   Jigdo: is it ever coming back? (http://www.linux-archive.org/fedora-user/705994-jigdo-ever-coming-back.html)

Renich Bon Ciric 09-21-2012 03:17 AM

Jigdo: is it ever coming back?
 
I really miss jigdo. It was a great way of updating the alpha iso into
the beta one. It would be mega-cool to have it available for F18...

--
It's hard to be free... but I love to struggle. Love isn't asked for;
it's just given. Respect isn't asked for; it's earned!
Renich Bon Ciric

http://www.woralelandia.com/
http://www.introbella.com/
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Andre Robatino 09-21-2012 03:16 PM

Jigdo: is it ever coming back?
 
Renich Bon Ciric <renich <at> woralelandia.com> writes:

> I really miss jigdo. It was a great way of updating the alpha iso into
> the beta one. It would be mega-cool to have it available for F18...

FYI, I provide delta ISOs between Alpha Gold, Beta Gold, and Final Gold in

http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/deltaisos/Gold_releases/

This should be much more efficient than either jigdo or rsync in terms of
bandwidth, since these both basically just avoid downloading unchanged packages,
but download changed packages in full. Delta ISOs also do that, but in addition
use delta rpms for changed packages. The size of delta ISOs for Alpha->Beta, or
Beta->Final, is typically around 15-20% of full ISO size. The size for (N-1)
Final to either N Alpha, N Beta, or N Final is about half full size. The ones
for 17 Final to 18 Alpha are there now and are 43.0% and 43.7% of full size for
i386 or x86_64, resp.

If the goal is just to save bandwidth, rsync should work about as well as jigdo,
as mentioned above. If one wants to get a speedup from using simultaneous
connections, besides the torrents, you could look at the aria2 package (the
binary in it is called aria2c).

(Note that the name "Gold_releases" of the directory may change, since there is
currently a debate about whether the word "Gold" confuses people when applied to
Alpha or Beta.)




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Renich Bon Ciric 09-21-2012 03:47 PM

Jigdo: is it ever coming back?
 
On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Andre Robatino
<robatino@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> FYI, I provide delta ISOs between Alpha Gold, Beta Gold, and Final Gold in
>
> http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/deltaisos/Gold_releases/
>
> This should be much more efficient than either jigdo or rsync in terms of
> bandwidth, since these both basically just avoid downloading unchanged packages,
> but download changed packages in full. Delta ISOs also do that, but in addition
> use delta rpms for changed packages. The size of delta ISOs for Alpha->Beta, or
> Beta->Final, is typically around 15-20% of full ISO size. The size for (N-1)
> Final to either N Alpha, N Beta, or N Final is about half full size. The ones
> for 17 Final to 18 Alpha are there now and are 43.0% and 43.7% of full size for
> i386 or x86_64, resp.
>
> If the goal is just to save bandwidth, rsync should work about as well as jigdo,
> as mentioned above. If one wants to get a speedup from using simultaneous
> connections, besides the torrents, you could look at the aria2 package (the
> binary in it is called aria2c).
>
> (Note that the name "Gold_releases" of the directory may change, since there is
> currently a debate about whether the word "Gold" confuses people when applied to
> Alpha or Beta.)

Wow, thanks a lot for the awesome service! ;)

Didn't know about this. Should this be published somewhere on the
front/download page? This is great. Thanks!

--
It's hard to be free... but I love to struggle. Love isn't asked for;
it's just given. Respect isn't asked for; it's earned!
Renich Bon Ciric

http://www.woralelandia.com/
http://www.introbella.com/
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Doug 09-21-2012 04:48 PM

Jigdo: is it ever coming back?
 
On 09/21/2012 11:16 AM, Andre Robatino wrote:

Renich Bon Ciric <renich <at> woralelandia.com> writes:


I really miss jigdo. It was a great way of updating the alpha iso into
the beta one. It would be mega-cool to have it available for F18...

I never saw anything more abstruse than jigdo. Some years ago I was
faced with this to try and install some distro. I gave up. Just use a
live CD like everybody else.

--doug
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Andre Robatino 09-21-2012 04:51 PM

Jigdo: is it ever coming back?
 
Renich Bon Ciric <renich <at> woralelandia.com> writes:

> Didn't know about this. Should this be published somewhere on the
> front/download page? This is great. Thanks!

The following issues should be noted:

1) In F15, the xz compression used changed, and unfortunately that isn't handled
automatically, so to use delta ISOs between versions after that, you need to
rebuild the ISOs on a machine running F15 or later. I do have semi-static
binaries in http://robatino.fedorapeople.org/deltaiso_executables/ that can be
used to rebuild recent ISOs on older OSes (F14 or below, or RHEL/CentOS, for
example), but as long as you're running F15 or later, just install the deltaiso
package from the Fedora repo and use the applydeltaiso command from that.

2) Since this involves delta rpms, there's the same bandwidth/CPU speed tradeoff
that's involved in deciding whether or not to use yum-presto for updates. If you
have a very fast download and a not-so-fast CPU, downloading full updated
packages becomes faster than downloading and applying delta rpms. In this case,
you could use rsync instead, which is available on at least some of the mirrors.
The yum-presto code for F18 and above will be threaded and make use of multiple
cores for rebuilding, which will make yum-presto more favorable, but the
deltaiso code isn't threaded yet (although it should be possible).

3) If you have the old ISO burned to optical disc, and you want to read it off
and verify the checksum before downloading the delta ISO (which is a good idea),
you need to know the exact size to read off. This is tricky. You can't just do
something like "cat /dev/sr0 > file.iso" and expect to get the right size. You
need to find the exact size, and then either use a dd command to read off
exactly that much, or use the truncate command on a padded image to reduce it to
the right size. To get the right size, you can look up the image at
http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/archive/ , then start a download with wget,
which shows the exact size in bytes at the beginning, then Ctrl-C it. With
standard ISOs, you would be able to look in the ISO header to find the size, but
all recent Fedora ISOs are "hybrid" which means they have extra padding in
addition to the ISO header size. Currently the extra padding consists of zeros
up to the next largest multiple of 1 MiB, so it's possible to infer the size,
but that may change in the future. I avoid all this myself by writing the exact
size of the image on my discs itself right after burning them (i.e.,
"3,834,642,432 bytes" on the Fedora-17-x86_64-DVD.iso disc).


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Andre Robatino 09-21-2012 05:00 PM

Jigdo: is it ever coming back?
 
Doug <dmcgarrett <at> optonline.net> writes:

> I never saw anything more abstruse than jigdo. Some years ago I was
> faced with this to try and install some distro. I gave up. Just use a
> live CD like everybody else.

I used to use jigdo for download Fedora Unity images (there was no choice,
except for torrents, which aren't great either) and hated it. It took most of
its time constantly closing and reopening a separate connection for each RPM,
rather than actual downloading (the TCP connection takes time to ramp up to full
speed, and since most of the RPMs are small, the average speed was well below
peak). It was like pulling teeth.




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Renich Bon Ciric 09-21-2012 06:23 PM

Jigdo: is it ever coming back?
 
On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Andre Robatino
<robatino@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> Renich Bon Ciric <renich <at> woralelandia.com> writes:
>
>> Didn't know about this. Should this be published somewhere on the
>> front/download page? This is great. Thanks!
>
> The following issues should be noted:
>
> 1) In F15, the xz compression used changed, and unfortunately that isn't handled
> automatically, so to use delta ISOs between versions after that, you need to
> rebuild the ISOs on a machine running F15 or later. I do have semi-static
> binaries in http://robatino.fedorapeople.org/deltaiso_executables/ that can be
> used to rebuild recent ISOs on older OSes (F14 or below, or RHEL/CentOS, for
> example), but as long as you're running F15 or later, just install the deltaiso
> package from the Fedora repo and use the applydeltaiso command from that.
>
> 2) Since this involves delta rpms, there's the same bandwidth/CPU speed tradeoff
> that's involved in deciding whether or not to use yum-presto for updates. If you
> have a very fast download and a not-so-fast CPU, downloading full updated
> packages becomes faster than downloading and applying delta rpms. In this case,
> you could use rsync instead, which is available on at least some of the mirrors.
> The yum-presto code for F18 and above will be threaded and make use of multiple
> cores for rebuilding, which will make yum-presto more favorable, but the
> deltaiso code isn't threaded yet (although it should be possible).
>
> 3) If you have the old ISO burned to optical disc, and you want to read it off
> and verify the checksum before downloading the delta ISO (which is a good idea),
> you need to know the exact size to read off. This is tricky. You can't just do
> something like "cat /dev/sr0 > file.iso" and expect to get the right size. You
> need to find the exact size, and then either use a dd command to read off
> exactly that much, or use the truncate command on a padded image to reduce it to
> the right size. To get the right size, you can look up the image at
> http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/archive/ , then start a download with wget,
> which shows the exact size in bytes at the beginning, then Ctrl-C it. With
> standard ISOs, you would be able to look in the ISO header to find the size, but
> all recent Fedora ISOs are "hybrid" which means they have extra padding in
> addition to the ISO header size. Currently the extra padding consists of zeros
> up to the next largest multiple of 1 MiB, so it's possible to infer the size,
> but that may change in the future. I avoid all this myself by writing the exact
> size of the image on my discs itself right after burning them (i.e.,
> "3,834,642,432 bytes" on the Fedora-17-x86_64-DVD.iso disc).

Wow! Noted, thanks! ;)

--
It's hard to be free... but I love to struggle. Love isn't asked for;
it's just given. Respect isn't asked for; it's earned!
Renich Bon Ciric

http://www.woralelandia.com/
http://www.introbella.com/
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Joe Zeff 09-22-2012 07:52 AM

Jigdo: is it ever coming back?
 
On 09/21/2012 09:48 AM, Doug wrote:

Just use a
live CD like everybody else.


I have never installed Fedora from a LiveCD, and I probably never will.
I prefer customizing my machines at install time, not as an afterthought.

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Renich Bon Ciric 09-22-2012 01:00 PM

Jigdo: is it ever coming back?
 
On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 2:52 AM, Joe Zeff <joe@zeff.us> wrote:
> I have never installed Fedora from a LiveCD, and I probably never will. I
> prefer customizing my machines at install time, not as an afterthought.

Same here! DVD rules!... or NetInstall...

--
It's hard to be free... but I love to struggle. Love isn't asked for;
it's just given. Respect isn't asked for; it's earned!
Renich Bon Ciric

http://www.woralelandia.com/
http://www.introbella.com/
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Bill Davidsen 09-27-2012 07:35 PM

Jigdo: is it ever coming back?
 
Doug wrote:

On 09/21/2012 11:16 AM, Andre Robatino wrote:

Renich Bon Ciric <renich <at> woralelandia.com> writes:


I really miss jigdo. It was a great way of updating the alpha iso into
the beta one. It would be mega-cool to have it available for F18...

I never saw anything more abstruse than jigdo. Some years ago I was
faced with this to try and install some distro. I gave up. Just use a
live CD like everybody else.

Perhaps you're thinking of some other package? Jigdo is used to create an
up-to-date media for local install. Live-CD doesn't have that capability AFAIK.


Jigdo could be called a proof of concept, it was a clumsy solution, but allowed
creating real install DVDs. Very handy if you don't have infinite bandwidth,
have machines not on network, or other need for an independent install media.
But jigdo was pretty clunky, didn't do a good job of using the network, and
worst of all updated *everything* rather than just what you actually use.


I think what's really needed is a tool to create install DVDs from an original
install plus the RPMs you actually use at your site (ie. keep and share the
packages when you do an update). Some of us install a fair number of small
custom systems, many of which are not on network. Doing an up-to-date install in
the first place would be really useful, and only the packages we actually use
are in need of an upgrade.



--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
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