On 30 July 2012 15:48, Chris Tyler <chris@tylers.info> wrote:
> On Sun, 2012-07-29 at 23:53 -0700, John Wendel wrote:


> "Linux" is shorthand. "GNU/Linux" is still shorthand. I personally run
> GNU/Linux/Xorg/Apache/BSD/LibreOffice/MySQL/Mozilla, but don't usually
> refer to it that way, and that's still an abbreviation.
>
> The GNU project is awesome and deserves credit; so do all the other
> communities that have contributed [tens of millions of lines of code] to
> the free software and open source systems I use. Mentioning them all in
> the name of the system is awkward and impedes communication. Anyone who
> knows what I'm talking about knows about the FSF and the GNU Project;
> anyone who doesn't isn't enlightened by expanding the name.
>

I suppose the distinction is that a lot of the basic infrastructure of
the OS is GNU, the kernel isn't the whole thing, glibc is a big
component. So GNU/Linux is maybe more precise, but also a bit
redundant most of the time.

> I find that "Fedora" is pretty descriptive shorthand and identifies both
> the universe of software and the community I work with most closely;
> "Linux" also works for me personally.
>

I find it interesting that blogger's stats record OS types 'Windows',
'Mac', 'Ubuntu' and 'Other Unix'

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On 07/29/2012 10:31 PM, G.Wolfe Woodbury wrote:

GNU is a software collection project founded by Richard Stallman that
provides open source versions of a who lot of programs that work with
the Linux (and other) kernel environment.
The GNU folks, not having a successfully popular kernel component, want
to insist on being acknowledged for their contributions by having folks
refer to the whole combination as GNU/Linux.


That's a load of hooey. GNU the project provides a collection of Free
Software, but GNU the operating system existed before Linux. The goal
was an implementation of the POSIX operating system specification.


That's where we're at. GNU/Linux is a POSIX operating system. Linux is
an operating system that is a subset of POSIX. Android, TiVo, and
numerous routers are common examples of Linux systems.

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Well I think the doubt in fact is about the correct way for call this Operating System (OS). I think the political correct way for it must be gnu/linux because historically it was the way as this OS was completed and worked. We are talking about the firsts years of the 90's. Nowadays this OS family has grown a lot. It's like a huge tree growing more and more every year.


But the most of people use to call them simply linux. It isn't wrong, but linux is in fact, as someone said before, just the kernel, not the whole operative system. And well, I think it's sufficiently explained.


Cheers

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On 08/03/2012 11:29 AM, Aradenatorix
Veckhom Vacelaevus wrote:


Well I think the doubt in fact is about the correct
way for call this Operating System (OS). I think the political
correct way for it must be gnu/linux because historically it was
the way as this OS was completed and worked. We are talking about
the firsts years of the 90's. Nowadays this OS family has grown a
lot. It's like a huge tree growing more and more every year.



But the most of people use to call them simply linux. It isn't
wrong, but linux is in fact, as someone said before, just the
kernel, not the whole operative system. And well, I think it's sufficiently
explained.



Cheers









+1





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Gordon Messmer wrote:

> GNU the project provides a collection of Free
> Software, but GNU the operating system existed before Linux.

Did you run this operating system?

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On 3 August 2012 12:29, Timothy Murphy <gayleard@eircom.net> wrote:

Gordon Messmer wrote:



> GNU the project provides a collection of Free

> Software, but GNU the operating system existed before Linux.



Did you run this operating system?
Although I hate people calling Linux "GNU/Linux"... See the history of Hurd:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd#Development_history


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Once, long ago--actually, on Thu, Aug 02, 2012 at 09:05:51PM -0700--Gordon Messmer (yinyang@eburg.com) said:
> That's a load of hooey. GNU the project provides a collection of
> Free Software, but GNU the operating system existed before Linux.
> The goal was an implementation of the POSIX operating system
> specification.

With all due respect, nonsense. Richard wanted a full reimplementation
of Unix, including the kernel. He was quite successful at getting
volunteers to carry out the implementation of commands, libraries,
etc.--I know, I did 'cut' & 'paste'.

However, the kernel was far less successful. Despite the claims
of "superior architecture", Hurd has never caught on; almost every
implementation you'll run into (I'd say 'every', but someone would come
up with John Drutin's Distro as a counter-example) uses the Linux kernel
and GNU libraries and utilities. Read the Wikipedia article on "GNU Hurd".

Richard Stallman wants people to acknowledge the contribution GNU has made
to the success of the Linux distributions by refering to them collectively
as "GNU/Linux". People tend to go for the shortest term that conveys a
meaning, so the vast majority of people simply call it "Linux", and those
who know understand that the GNU utilities, commands, and libraries are
included.

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> However, the kernel was far less successful. Despite the claims
> of "superior architecture", Hurd has never caught on; almost every
> implementation you'll run into (I'd say 'every', but someone would come
> up with John Drutin's Distro as a counter-example) uses the Linux kernel
> and GNU libraries and utilities. Read the Wikipedia article on "GNU Hurd".

To be fair to the FSF there is often a perception that the FSF screwed up
here. In a sense yes they made some wrong decisions, and then very
stupidly were insulting and hostile to the Linux authors but there is a
background that makes more sense.

When the GNU OS concept started the idea that everyone would have a Unix
capable system on their desk was pretty hard to imagine. The choice of a
Mach based microkernel was both in keeping with a lot of the research of
the time and also had a social element. The vision was a machine where
any user could for example implement their own personal file system
without interfering with other users. Viewed in the modern PC world that
sounds loopy but on a shared multi-user computer it was an important
aspect of software freedom.

Sticking to Mach and being hostile to Linux wasn't very smart and a lot
of developers have not forgiven the FSF for that, which is one reason
they find the "GNU/Linux" label deeply insulting.

The other screw up was that they turned down the use of UZI, which would
have given them a working if basic v7 Unix equivalent OS years before
Linux was released. Had they done that Linux would never have happened
and probably the great Windows battle would have been much more
fascinating.

> Richard Stallman wants people to acknowledge the contribution GNU has made
> to the success of the Linux distributions by refering to them collectively
> as "GNU/Linux". People tend to go for the shortest term that conveys a
> meaning, so the vast majority of people simply call it "Linux", and those
> who know understand that the GNU utilities, commands, and libraries are
> included.

In some cases - by code volume the FSF is not the biggest contributor,
even when you include (as they like to) all the third party code they
took and labelled GNU. In the case of the largest and most common Linux
distribution today there is almost no GNU code in it: Android.

Alan
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This is all IMHO...

Linux is the kernel.

GNU is a project to create a Free operating system, which has created
such components as glibc, gcc, emacs, gdb, etc.

GNU/Linux is a combination of the two - any Linux-based operating system
that uses the GNU components.

There are other GNU-based operating systems using other kernels, such as
GNU/Hurd.

Fedora is a Linux-based distro that happens to include the GNU
components but also includes components from many other projects.

Most Linux-based distros (Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, Arch, etc) are
supersets of GNU/Linux - they use the Linux kernel and contain the GNU
project components, but also contain many other (possibly non-Free)
components. While it's technically true to call such distros
"GNU/Linux", such a label ignores a large portion of the origin and
richness of those distros. It would be like calling the USA "the
country that contains Boston."

Also, outside of myself, in my house we call such distros "Firefox" ;-)

Some operating systems do not use the GNU components yet are still
Linux-based, such as (I think) Android and certain special-purpose
embedded systems. It is possible, for example, to build Newlib for
Linux, and have a Newlib/Linux system.


So, IMHO, the answer to your question is "It depends on what you're
talking about, and why."
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On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 5:39 AM, DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> wrote:

> While it's technically true to call such distros
> "GNU/Linux", such a label ignores a large portion of the origin and
> richness of those distros. It would be like calling the USA "the
> country that contains Boston."
>
> Also, outside of myself, in my house we call such distros "Firefox" ;-)
>

I Think there's a misunderstanding between the OS and Distro in this argument.
and of course there's gonna be so much more debate on what a OS really
is. (Bill Gates may appeal his conviction if everyone agree that every
piece of applications for example browser is part of a superset named
OS)

>So, IMHO, the answer to your question is "It depends on what you're
>talking about, and why."

in my opinion Linux couldn't and still cannot exist without certain
parts of gnu project including software and licenses, especially gcc,
glibc, gpl and lgpl. and that's true for android too, unless it uses
kernel header's without gpl licensing instead of glibc.
i don't mind any naming convention as long as it doesn't underestimate
the whole parts of concept.
but if calling a linux operating system Linux means:

>Linux-based distro that happens to include the GNU
>components but also includes components from many other projects.

I prefer not to use the word, because it doesn't concerns some
obligations (like gpl) and some involuntary constraints (like gcc)
fedora uses a GNU/Linux OS, and it's a GNU/Linux or linux distro, and
android IS not a GNU/Linux distro because despite the fact that it
contains Linux, it is not obligated to gnu general public license.


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