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Old 07-07-2012, 12:34 PM
Heinz Diehl
 
Default Fedora 18 and UEFI

On 07.07.2012, Itamar Reis Peixoto wrote:

> I think we are bigger enough to say no and buy only hardware compatible.

We're not. Micr*soft dominates, and they can virtually do anything
they like.

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Old 07-07-2012, 12:36 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default Fedora 18 and UEFI

Am 07.07.2012 14:34, schrieb Heinz Diehl:
> On 07.07.2012, Itamar Reis Peixoto wrote:
>
>> I think we are bigger enough to say no and buy only hardware compatible.
>
> We're not. Micr*soft dominates, and they can virtually do anything
> they like.

we are!

do not buy the cheapest consumer crap and you are on the safe side
in the BUSINESS market microsoft has nothing to say, really!

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Old 07-07-2012, 12:44 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Fedora 18 and UEFI

On 07/07/2012 03:51 PM, suvayu ali wrote:

>
> I am more worried about "free" as in freedom. I don't quite grasp the
> implications as an end user. For example consider the following
> scenarios.
>
> Can I freely choose to use proprietary (or for that matter alternative
> free) drivers for my hardware from whatever source I prefer?

On x86 systems, the ability to disable secure boot is mandated by
Microsoft and needed to debug Microsoft drivers and since all the
hardware manufacturers want to comply to this specification, you can be
rest assured they will provide this functionality and once you disable
secure boot (instructions for this will likely be in a Fedora wiki
page), then you are free to load up any custom kernel/kernel module of
your choice. Also Fedora will provide the tools that the project itself
uses within the official repository (ie) will be free and open source
and instructions to use your own key in custom mode.

On ARM systems that follow the MS specification, there is no such
ability to disable secure boot and such locked down devices will simply
be not supported by Fedora at all. We have plenty of other ARM systems
that will be since Linux ecosystem in ARM is strong, it isn't a
immediate concern.

Rahul
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:46 PM
Carroll Grigsby
 
Default Fedora 18 and UEFI

On Sat, 7 Jul 2012 08:58:31 -0300
Itamar Reis Peixoto <itamar@ispbrasil.com.br> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 7:21 AM, suvayu ali
> <fatkasuvayu+linux@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I realise I can turn Secure Boot off, but hardware manufacturers
> > have often dropped the ball on complying with standards. What if
> > the next generation of motherboards/laptops make it harder to turn
> > off secure boot? Just to make it clear, the questions above are not
> > rhetorical. I just want to understand better the implications as an
> > end-user.
> >
>
>
> I think we are bigger enough to say no and buy only hardware
> compatible.
>
>

Good luck with that! I've been thinking about replacing this computer
with something newer, so when I was in my local computer store
yesterday, I asked if they had any motherboards or systems that did
not have this UEFI/Microsoft crap installed. Nope. None. Nil. Zilch.
Nada. Ain't no such critter. All gone. It's hiding with Judge
Crater and Jimmy Hoffa. You get the message...

Ok, so Fedora has worked out one way forward. Ubuntu is going in
another direction. I haven't seen anything about any of the other
distros. Has anyone heard anything about Debian?

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Old 07-07-2012, 12:54 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default Fedora 18 and UEFI

Am 07.07.2012 14:46, schrieb Carroll Grigsby:
> On Sat, 7 Jul 2012 08:58:31 -0300
> Itamar Reis Peixoto <itamar@ispbrasil.com.br> wrote:
>> I think we are bigger enough to say no and buy only hardware
>> compatible.
>
> Good luck with that! I've been thinking about replacing this computer
> with something newer, so when I was in my local computer store
> yesterday, I asked if they had any motherboards or systems that did
> not have this UEFI/Microsoft crap installed. Nope. None. Nil. Zilch.
> Nada. Ain't no such critter. All gone. It's hiding with Judge
> Crater and Jimmy Hoffa. You get the message...

you should realize that UEFI has origin nothing to do
with Microsoft and secure boot, all my workstations
are supporting UEFI and are completly microsoft-free
and were even shipped with a HP branded Debian

Micorsoft is NOT in teh position to close the x86
market only for them because if the would try it
history repeats and these days the EU would be
the next killing their business in whole europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft




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Old 07-07-2012, 12:55 PM
Fernando Cassia
 
Default Fedora 18 and UEFI

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Heinz Diehl <htd@fritha.org> wrote:
> We're not. Micr*soft dominates, and they can virtually do anything
> they like.

Not if the US DOJ and the Federal Trade Comission gets involved.

Remember the US-DOJ trial with judge Thomas Penfield Jackson found
MSFT GUILTY. The fact that later a new administration came in and
allowed them to turn the breakup into a set of ´remedies´ which
included opening up MSFT protocols to third parties (which for
instance, allowed Samba NTLM authentication to interoperate with
MSFT´s) is besides the point... Microsoft is a convicted monopolist,
and as such there´s a thin line they must walk on...

I´m not a lawyer but I guess some antitrust lawyer could conclude that
this is an abuse of dominant position.

See for instance the recent MSFT-Nokia deal, now an antitrust lawyer says:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-balto/nokia-microsoft_b_1582227.html

"The European Commission will hopefully open an investigation and the
U.S. regulators will follow suit."

I hope the EFF, the CDT or other advocacy groups get involved to get
the FTC briefed about the implications of this.

Just my $0.02
FC
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:05 PM
Fernando Cassia
 
Default Fedora 18 and UEFI

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Rahul Sundaram <metherid@gmail.com> wrote:
> On x86 systems, the ability to disable secure boot is mandated by
> Microsoft and needed to debug Microsoft drivers and since all the
> hardware manufacturers want to comply to this specification, you can be
> rest assured they will provide this functionality and once you disable
> secure boot (instructions for this will likely be in a Fedora wiki
> page

Yes, but notice the evil in Microsoft´s wording. Who wants to disable
"SECURE" booting? Secure ´feels good´. Lack of ´secure´ does not. It´s
like asking "do you want to disable secure landing"? on an airplane.


Of course 99.9% of the people will think "why do I have to disable
SECURE boot to run this? I don´t want my system to have INSECURE
booting... please give me secure! in fact, I´d like extra secure if
possible" . -even if they don´t know what secure booting means to
begin with-

Thus, for starters, RedHat´s decision to pay for a signing key is the
practical approach, so users will be able to boot Fedora without
tweaking their BIOS/CMOS settings.

But what I think could be challenged with antitrust regulators is
Microsoft CHARGING for it. To keep it a level playing field MSFT
should issue free keys to any OS development firm that asks for one,
whether commercial or open source.

FC
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:21 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default Fedora 18 and UEFI

Am 07.07.2012 15:05, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
> Thus, for starters, RedHat´s decision to pay for a signing key is the
> practical approach, so users will be able to boot Fedora without
> tweaking their BIOS/CMOS settings.
>
> But what I think could be challenged with antitrust regulators is
> Microsoft CHARGING for it. To keep it a level playing field MSFT
> should issue free keys to any OS development firm that asks for one,
> whether commercial or open source.

well, and this is what makes "secure boot" practically useless

* using it: too many restrictions
* doing like you said: over the long untrusted

BTW:
are you aware that the key itself is from verisign?
the will not give microsoft unlimited keys for free

the whole "secure boot" idea is crap


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Old 07-07-2012, 02:17 PM
Heinz Diehl
 
Default Fedora 18 and UEFI

On 07.07.2012, Reindl Harald wrote:

> do not buy the cheapest consumer crap and you are on the safe side
> in the BUSINESS market microsoft has nothing to say, really!

Here in Norway, ~99% of all institutions use Windows. Both Windows 7
for their desktop environment, and Windows server for their networks.
Linux is used, but doesn't play an important role.

Even at university/college they are using it. All is Windows-based:
Endnote, Mathlab, SPSS... you name it. As a Linux guy you are
on your own. I spent more than a week hacking on both the Zotero
sourcecode and .CSL-scripts to adopt my universities citation style...

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Old 07-07-2012, 02:27 PM
Dave Ihnat
 
Default Fedora 18 and UEFI

Once, long ago--actually, on Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 02:54:11PM +0200--Reindl Harald (h.reindl@thelounge.net) said:
> Micorsoft is NOT in teh position to close the x86 market only for
> them because if the would try it history repeats and these days the
> EU would be the next killing their business in whole europe

I concur that MS can't lock down the x86/x64 market. However, they ARE
trying to lock down the ARM market--at least, any devices built to run MS
software. Considering the burgeoning mobile markeplace, this is a matter
for some concern; it's not inconceivable that Intel & clones are going to
be marginalized, or at least minimalized, moving forward in that arena.

Food for thought,
--
Dave Ihnat
dihnat@dminet.com
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