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Old 07-05-2012, 07:59 AM
Andrew Haley
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On 07/05/2012 12:39 AM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> What Im saying is that if someone is pushing for Gnome to become
> infected with Mono, its a way better choice to make it depend on the
> GPLed OpenJDK rather than .Net which is a Microsoft controlled
> platform.

Absolutely.

Andrew.
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:05 AM
Olav Vitters
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On Wed, Jul 04, 2012 at 12:28:47AM -0300, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTEzMjM

Phoronix?

Though, Phoronix doesn't even suggest what you read into it.

> I'd rather see more Gnome projects using OpenJDK and
> http://java-gnome.sourceforge.net/ rather than the .Net clone Mono.

Suggest to promote Java instead of taking the tin foil hat / stop energy
approach.

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Old 07-05-2012, 03:26 PM
Christopher Svanefalk
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Andrew Haley <aph@redhat.com> wrote:

On 07/04/2012 08:29 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote:



> Java lovers answer me why am I having problems running Java applets

> like internet banking in my Firefox on Fedora if it's so superior

> and very well supported environment?



Probably because you haven't told us about them.



Banking applets are particularly problematic because they tend to be

unavailable to developers who don't happen to be customers of that

bank. *Also, banking applets are often deliberately obfuscated.

Having said that, we will try to make them work if we can.



Finally, and people are often surprised by this, applets are not part

of the Java SE platform: the browser plugin is an entirely independent

component that's not part of OpenJDK.

Touche.*


Andrew.

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Christopher Svanefalk

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Old 07-05-2012, 03:29 PM
Christopher Svanefalk
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 10:43 PM, Fernando Cassia <fcassia@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz

<mmarzantowicz@osdf.com.pl> wrote:

> I was referring to weight of JRE

> and browser plugins and it's imperfections. I don't care about language

> itself. If people like it's syntax it's theirs decision. But please Java

> lovers answer me why am I having problems running Java applets like

> internet banking



I was thinking about DESKTOP APPS, those that run with java -jar appname.jar.



OpenJDK, the gpl version of java, does not include the "browser

plug-in". That is what you use when you need _applets_ to run.

And that is handled via "icedtea". that is an open source "browser

plug-in" component developed by a separate team of devs, and a known

source of problems.



OpenJDK, the Java VM, imho runs quite well, for _desktop_ apps. I

rarely notice any difference between OpenJDK 7 and the propietary Java

VM (JRE) that you download from Java.com on Windows machines.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think that OpenJDK uses more or less exactly the same VM (HotSpot) as the proprietary distribution does.*
*


Also, there is always the option of installing the "freeware"

Sun/Oracle JRE from Java.com...



FC

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Old 07-05-2012, 03:31 PM
Fernando Cassia
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Christopher Svanefalk
<christopher.svanefalk@gmail.com> wrote:
> Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think that OpenJDK uses more or less
> exactly the same VM (HotSpot) as the proprietary distribution does.

Yes, OpenJDK is the reference implementation of JDK7.

My point was that if there was a problem with the "web browser
plug-in" used with OpenJDK (IcedTea) that there was always the option
of using the freeware distribution of the JRE from Java.com, which
uses a propietary web browser plug-in, much more tested on the field
than "Icedtea".

FC

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Old 07-05-2012, 03:32 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

Am 05.07.2012 17:29, schrieb Christopher Svanefalk:
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 10:43 PM, Fernando Cassia <fcassia@gmail.com <mailto:fcassia@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz
> <mmarzantowicz@osdf.com.pl <mailto:mmarzantowicz@osdf.com.pl>> wrote:
> > I was referring to weight of JRE
> > and browser plugins and it's imperfections. I don't care about language
> > itself. If people like it's syntax it's theirs decision. But please Java
> > lovers answer me why am I having problems running Java applets like
> > internet banking
>
> I was thinking about DESKTOP APPS, those that run with java -jar appname.jar.
>
> OpenJDK, the gpl version of java, does not include the "browser
> plug-in". That is what you use when you need _applets_ to run.
> And that is handled via "icedtea". that is an open source "browser
> plug-in" component developed by a separate team of devs, and a known
> source of problems.
>
> OpenJDK, the Java VM, imho runs quite well, for _desktop_ apps. I
> rarely notice any difference between OpenJDK 7 and the propietary Java
> VM (JRE) that you download from Java.com on Windows machines.
>
>
> Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think that OpenJDK uses more or less exactly the same VM (HotSpot) as the
> proprietary distribution does.

yes, because starting with Java7 openJDK is the REFERENCE IMPLEMENTATION

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Old 07-05-2012, 03:59 PM
Fernando Cassia
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 4:54 AM, Ian Malone <ibmalone@gmail.com> wrote:
> But hey, paranoid speculation is fun.

"Only the paranoid survive" - Andy Grove.

Also, given that MSFT made dead people write letters supporting the
firm in its antitrust struggle with the DOJ...

Microsoft's 'grassroots' campaign backfires: even dead people write in
support of the firm
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20010823&slug=microlob23

And Microsoft's funding of SCO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO-Linux_controversies#Microsoft_funding_of_SCO_contr oversy

And Microsoft's hard, long-term work to destroy Java since its inception
http://pages.citebite.com/p2w8l6q3vmut

...then I guess you can never be too paranoid.

;-)
FC
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Old 07-05-2012, 04:07 PM
Fernando Cassia
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 3:11 AM, Tim <ignored_mailbox@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> Anyway, getting back to the subject of Java, the often vaunted claim
> that it's platform independent doesn't hold up. Frequently Java
> programs will only work as expected on a certain interpreter, on a
> certain underlying OS.

I can run Vuze and muCommander on Windows and Linux, and that is
cross-platform enough for me.
Also, many Java programmers I know use Mac OS-X. Supporting the 3 most
used OSs on earth clearly is good enough for me.

Apps *are* platform independent, and many can easily detect the
underlying OS they're running on, and enable or disable system
intergration features. For instance, on muCommander you can have it
look like a native WinXP app, or Win7, or GTK on Linux. There's also
hooks in the Java APIs to call the system's default web browser,
whatever that is, or you can dock apps to the systray or Gnome panel,
using JDIC (Java Desktop Integration components).

H*ck, I've even run Java apps in my ancient Pentium III box using IBM
OS/2 Warp Server, with the OpenJDK port.

Writing proper Java apps is another story. Many devs commit the evil
mistake of "packaging" Java apps as native executables or installers
to make things "easy" for users, which negates the whole benefit of
Java, which is having the same .JAR binary, able to run on whatever OS
you choose that has a JVM installed.

A properly written Java app, in my book, is one that is delivered as a
single .jar, and that the user can run on Windows by double-clicking
on its JAR or, in other OSs that do not have the file association set
correctly, by launching it via java -jar appname.jar

I've long advocated that one-Jar http://one-jar.sourceforge.net/
should be part of the OpenJDK compiler and mandatory for Java apps.
There's nothing worse than seeing a great Java app delivered as a ZIP
file and telling users to manually unpack it and launch it from a
.bat/.cmd/.sh.

But hey, just my $0.02
FC
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:36 PM
Veeti Paananen
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On 07/04/2012 09:06 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz
> <mmarzantowicz@osdf.com.pl> wrote:
>> Java? This fat and ugly pig? Must be a joke. Gnome should focus on C/C++
>> with Vala and Python as supporting languages.
>
> Yeah, such a fat and ugly pig that great software like VOIP app Jitsi
> (www.jitsi.org) uses it, Vuze P2P uses it, Jdownloader uses it, like
> Art of Illusion 3D renderer and Sweet Home 3D uses it
> http://www.sweethome3d.com/index.jsp
>
> With OpenJDK7 being GPL and ubiquitous on Linux distros, it's hard to
> make a case for NOT using it, specially when non-Java languages can
> use it (Jython, JRuby, xRuby, NetRexx, Jabaco...).
>
> If you speak out of ignorance and prejudice, it can also be said that
> C/C++ brought us pigs like KDE 4.x which can use up to 500 MB of ram.

Speaking of RAM, I try to avoid Java-based desktop applications like the
plague because almost every single one of them seems to hog up a minimum
of 100MB (and usually more) of RAM immediately.

Out of curiosity, I tried installing one of the examples you mentioned
and Vuze gobbled up 160 megabytes instantly which is completely
unacceptable for a torrent client.

That might not sound like a lot nowadays, but it adds up surprisingly
quickly with "just" 4 gigabytes of memory.

(In addition, most Java apps insist on using hideous UI toolkits like
Swing instead of Qt or SWT.)

--
Veeti P. - not a fan of the language either

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Old 07-20-2012, 07:52 AM
Tim
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On Fri, 2012-07-20 at 02:36 +0300, Veeti Paananen wrote:
> Out of curiosity, I tried installing one of the examples you mentioned
> and Vuze gobbled up 160 megabytes instantly which is completely
> unacceptable for a torrent client.
>
> That might not sound like a lot nowadays, but it adds up surprisingly
> quickly with "just" 4 gigabytes of memory.

Yes, programmers seem to forget that just because you have X amount of
RAM and y CPU speed, that you don't want one program to use all of it by
itself. You want to be able to do several things simultaneously.

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