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Old 07-04-2012, 07:29 PM
Mateusz Marzantowicz
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On 04.07.2012 19:33, Andrew Haley wrote:
> On 07/04/2012 04:48 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote:
>> On 04.07.2012 05:28, Fernando Cassia wrote:
>>> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTEzMjM
>>>
>>> I'd rather see more Gnome projects using OpenJDK and
>>> http://java-gnome.sourceforge.net/ rather than the .Net clone Mono.
>> Java? This fat and ugly pig? Must be a joke. Gnome should focus on C/C++
>> with Vala and Python as supporting languages.
> Woo hoo! Language flame wars! Let's go!
>
> Andrew.

No, no! It's not yet another flame war. I was referring to weight of JRE
and browser plugins and it's imperfections. I don't care about language
itself. If people like it's syntax it's theirs decision. But please Java
lovers answer me why am I having problems running Java applets like
internet banking in my Firefox on Fedora if it's so superior and very
well supported environment? I agree that Java environment is good for
academic usage but I don't buy it as a dumb computer user.


Mateusz Marzantowicz

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Old 07-04-2012, 07:57 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On 07/04/2012 12:29 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote:

But please Java
lovers answer me why am I having problems running Java applets like
internet banking in my Firefox on Fedora if it's so superior and very
well supported environment?


Badly written apps that are only tested (and poorly, at that) on one
version of Windows using one version (probably 6) of IE?

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Old 07-04-2012, 08:43 PM
Fernando Cassia
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz
<mmarzantowicz@osdf.com.pl> wrote:
> I was referring to weight of JRE
> and browser plugins and it's imperfections. I don't care about language
> itself. If people like it's syntax it's theirs decision. But please Java
> lovers answer me why am I having problems running Java applets like
> internet banking

I was thinking about DESKTOP APPS, those that run with java -jar appname.jar.

OpenJDK, the gpl version of java, does not include the "browser
plug-in". That is what you use when you need _applets_ to run.
And that is handled via "icedtea". that is an open source "browser
plug-in" component developed by a separate team of devs, and a known
source of problems.

OpenJDK, the Java VM, imho runs quite well, for _desktop_ apps. I
rarely notice any difference between OpenJDK 7 and the propietary Java
VM (JRE) that you download from Java.com on Windows machines.

Also, there is always the option of installing the "freeware"
Sun/Oracle JRE from Java.com...

FC
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Old 07-04-2012, 09:45 PM
Frank Murphy
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On 04/07/12 20:29, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote:

I having problems running Java applets like

internet banking in my Firefox on Fedora if it's so superior and very
well supported environment?


I have no problems doing my online banking here in Ireland.
with F16.x86_64 Xfce Firefox OpenJDKIcedtea
I'm not with the bank that has the current technical difficulties:
(Google: Ulster Bank technical problems)


I agree that Java environment is good for

academic usage but I don't buy it as a dumb computer user.



Java is almost exclusively though at W.I.T here in Ireland
As 1st years we asked "why Java"
Reply from College "it's what Industry has asked for"


--
Regards,
Frank
"Jack of all, fubars"


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Old 07-04-2012, 11:18 PM
Mateusz Marzantowicz
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On 04.07.2012 22:43, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz
> <mmarzantowicz@osdf.com.pl> wrote:
>> I was referring to weight of JRE
>> and browser plugins and it's imperfections. I don't care about language
>> itself. If people like it's syntax it's theirs decision. But please Java
>> lovers answer me why am I having problems running Java applets like
>> internet banking
> I was thinking about DESKTOP APPS, those that run with java -jar appname.jar.
>
> OpenJDK, the gpl version of java, does not include the "browser
> plug-in". That is what you use when you need _applets_ to run.
> And that is handled via "icedtea". that is an open source "browser
> plug-in" component developed by a separate team of devs, and a known
> source of problems.
>
> OpenJDK, the Java VM, imho runs quite well, for _desktop_ apps. I
> rarely notice any difference between OpenJDK 7 and the propietary Java
> VM (JRE) that you download from Java.com on Windows machines.
>
> Also, there is always the option of installing the "freeware"
> Sun/Oracle JRE from Java.com...
>
> FC

OK, to be more topic related: I don't condemn Java nor it's JREs etc. I
only think it's not most optimal choice for GNOME as well as .NET or
Mono. This is similar argumentation that Linus Torvalds presents about
why he is not using C++ instead of C for programming.


Mateusz Marzantowicz
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:39 PM
Fernando Cassia
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz
<mmarzantowicz@osdf.com.pl> wrote:
> OK, to be more topic related: I don't condemn Java nor it's JREs etc. I
> only think it's not most optimal choice for GNOME as well as .NET or
> Mono.

Im not saying "hey, lets re-code Gnome in Java". No.

What Im saying is that if someone is pushing for Gnome to become
infected with Mono, its a way better choice to make it depend on the
GPLed OpenJDK rather than .Net which is a Microsoft controlled
platform.

In other words, that given a choice between OpenJDK and Mono, that
Java is the lesser evil.

Anyway... I just hope that with the recent death of Moonlight (the
SIlverlight clone)
http://www.linuxdevelopernews.com/linuxdevelopernews-81-20120601MoonlightDiscontinued.html

...and the firing of Mono devs from Attachmate after Novell let it go
http://lxnews.org/2011/05/06/attachmate-kills-off-mono/

...that this will soon be a problem we dont have to worry about. :-P

Yet, it worries me that Microsoft might feel inclined to fund the
Gnome Mono infection directly instead of using proxies as they did in
the past...

FC
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Old 07-05-2012, 03:39 AM
Richard Vickery
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Fernando Cassia <fcassia@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz

<mmarzantowicz@osdf.com.pl> wrote:

> OK, to be more topic related: I don't condemn Java nor it's JREs etc. I

> only think it's not most optimal choice for GNOME as well as .NET or

> Mono.



Im not saying "hey, lets re-code Gnome in Java". No.



What Im saying is that if someone is pushing for Gnome to become

infected with Mono, its a way better choice to make it depend on the

GPLed OpenJDK rather than .Net which is a Microsoft controlled

platform.



In other words, that given a choice between OpenJDK and Mono, that

Java is the lesser evil.



Anyway... I just hope that with the recent death of Moonlight (the

SIlverlight clone)

http://www.linuxdevelopernews.com/linuxdevelopernews-81-20120601MoonlightDiscontinued.html



...and the firing of Mono devs from Attachmate after Novell let it go

http://lxnews.org/2011/05/06/attachmate-kills-off-mono/



...that this will soon be a problem we dont have to worry about. :-P



Yet, it worries me that Microsoft might feel inclined to fund the

Gnome Mono infection directly instead of using proxies as they did in

the past...



FC

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Is it possible to quite upgrading Gnome if Microsoft does infect it? If not, then it must be possible to write Mono out of *Gnome for our purposes.
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Old 07-05-2012, 06:11 AM
Tim
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 21:29 +0200, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote:
> If people like it's syntax it's theirs decision.

Syntax error...

Sorry, I could not resist, but that sentence was just begging for it.

Anyway, getting back to the subject of Java, the often vaunted claim
that it's platform independent doesn't hold up. Frequently Java
programs will only work as expected on a certain interpreter, on a
certain underlying OS. With Java-originated applications, they nearly
always need to specially tweak the programming to make versions that
will be run on different operating systems.

Trying to be vendor neutral can only work if you're the lowest common
denominator. Using the few features that are common to most/all OSs
means that you cannot make use of the special features only available on
other ones. That makes for a dull and restricted application.

--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.



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Old 07-05-2012, 07:54 AM
Ian Malone
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On 5 July 2012 00:39, Fernando Cassia <fcassia@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz
> <mmarzantowicz@osdf.com.pl> wrote:
>> OK, to be more topic related: I don't condemn Java nor it's JREs etc. I
>> only think it's not most optimal choice for GNOME as well as .NET or
>> Mono.
>
> Im not saying "hey, lets re-code Gnome in Java". No.
>
> What Im saying is that if someone is pushing for Gnome to become
> infected with Mono, its a way better choice to make it depend on the
> GPLed OpenJDK rather than .Net which is a Microsoft controlled
> platform.
>
> In other words, that given a choice between OpenJDK and Mono, that
> Java is the lesser evil.
>
> Anyway... I just hope that with the recent death of Moonlight (the
> SIlverlight clone)
> http://www.linuxdevelopernews.com/linuxdevelopernews-81-20120601MoonlightDiscontinued.html
>
> ...and the firing of Mono devs from Attachmate after Novell let it go
> http://lxnews.org/2011/05/06/attachmate-kills-off-mono/
>
> ...that this will soon be a problem we dont have to worry about. :-P
>
> Yet, it worries me that Microsoft might feel inclined to fund the
> Gnome Mono infection directly instead of using proxies as they did in
> the past...

You still have apparently not read the actual task list, which is
mainly focused on fixing apps that were written in Mono to start with
and getting them to work with Gnome3 and updating the language
bindings. But hey, paranoid speculation is fun.

--
imalone
http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk
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Old 07-05-2012, 07:58 AM
Andrew Haley
 
Default Is Gnome becoming a Microsoft project?

On 07/04/2012 08:29 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote:

> Java lovers answer me why am I having problems running Java applets
> like internet banking in my Firefox on Fedora if it's so superior
> and very well supported environment?

Probably because you haven't told us about them.

Banking applets are particularly problematic because they tend to be
unavailable to developers who don't happen to be customers of that
bank. Also, banking applets are often deliberately obfuscated.
Having said that, we will try to make them work if we can.

Finally, and people are often surprised by this, applets are not part
of the Java SE platform: the browser plugin is an entirely independent
component that's not part of OpenJDK.

Andrew.
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