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Old 07-03-2012, 11:10 PM
Robert Myers
 
Default And don't let the door hit you on the way out

Hello, all,

I've been using Red Hat and then Fedora for a long time. The only
reason I've stuck with Fedora this long is that I am very grateful to
Red Hat for its contribution to the community.

HOWEVER. As time has passed, Fedora has become increasingly
demanding, idiosyncratic, and user-hostile. I can't keep up with the
tick-tock any more, and I'm tired of playing where's waldo so as to
figure out how to do the most obvious things, like how to bring up a
terminal or how to change the power settings with the latest release
of FC-infinity.

The precipitating event is actually caused by Windows, which will not
accommodate all 24Gb of RAM I have on one machine without my paying
blackmail (which I would have to pay over and over again), and Fedora
doesn't even aim at being a replacement for Windows.

Perhaps I will become just as dissatisified with Ubuntu as I have been
with everything else, but maybe I'll die or become senile first. My
impression of system professionals has not changed since I first
started using computers, which was long before anything resembling x86
was even a gleam in anyone's eye. All I can say is I hope y'all are
having fun, because your endless flights of fancy are nothing but a
pain for ordinary users. My dream is a bare-metal hypervisor that
actually works, so that I can actually switch between one
idiosyncratic system and another with the blink of an eye.

Fedora will stay on some machines for a while, but I think I can see
the last station on the line. I wish I could say it's been fun.

Robert Myers.
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:49 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default And don't let the door hit you on the way out

On 07/03/2012 04:10 PM, Robert Myers wrote:

Fedora
doesn't even aim at being a replacement for Windows.


And why should it? That would be setting the bar far, far too low. You
complain about how it's getting harder and harder to find various
settings. Is that in the GUI, or the CLI? If you're only talking about
the GUI, it might be that the devs in whatever DE you use are more
interested in change for its own sake than you find acceptable. If so,
before leaving Fedora, you might consider trying a few other DEs. Who
knows; one of them might be just what you're looking for.

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Old 07-04-2012, 01:02 AM
Gordon Messmer
 
Default And don't let the door hit you on the way out

On 07/03/2012 04:10 PM, Robert Myers wrote:

The precipitating event is actually caused by Windows, which will not
accommodate all 24Gb of RAM I have on one machine without my paying
blackmail (which I would have to pay over and over again), and Fedora
doesn't even aim at being a replacement for Windows.


I'm reminded of ESR's vocal and high profile switch away from Fedora
after he manually broke something that RPM told him not to.


I don't know if the Fedora maintainers aim at a Windows replacement or
not. I know that as a long time Red Hat user, I feel like I've seen the
quality of the distribution, transparency and community involvement, and
commitment to Free Software all increase over time, and I'm extremely
happy with those things. When my non-technical friends want a PC, I
give them Fedora. My mom runs Fedora. The people I help have a secure,
reliable system that offers them the software that they want.


I am confused to no end that a user is giving up Fedora because
non-Enterprise releases of Windows don't support > 16 GB of RAM.



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Old 07-04-2012, 01:05 AM
Mark LaPierre
 
Default And don't let the door hit you on the way out

On 07/03/2012 07:10 PM, Robert Myers wrote:

Hello, all,

I've been using Red Hat and then Fedora for a long time. The only
reason I've stuck with Fedora this long is that I am very grateful to
Red Hat for its contribution to the community.

HOWEVER. As time has passed, Fedora has become increasingly
demanding, idiosyncratic, and user-hostile. I can't keep up with the
tick-tock any more, and I'm tired of playing where's waldo so as to
figure out how to do the most obvious things, like how to bring up a
terminal or how to change the power settings with the latest release
of FC-infinity.

The precipitating event is actually caused by Windows, which will not
accommodate all 24Gb of RAM I have on one machine without my paying
blackmail (which I would have to pay over and over again), and Fedora
doesn't even aim at being a replacement for Windows.

Perhaps I will become just as dissatisified with Ubuntu as I have been
with everything else, but maybe I'll die or become senile first. My
impression of system professionals has not changed since I first
started using computers, which was long before anything resembling x86
was even a gleam in anyone's eye. All I can say is I hope y'all are
having fun, because your endless flights of fancy are nothing but a
pain for ordinary users. My dream is a bare-metal hypervisor that
actually works, so that I can actually switch between one
idiosyncratic system and another with the blink of an eye.

Fedora will stay on some machines for a while, but I think I can see
the last station on the line. I wish I could say it's been fun.

Robert Myers.


How about something way more stable, like CentOS or Scientific Linux.
Both are based on RHEL which is the beneficiary of all the testing that
goes on here in Fedora. You do realize that Fedora is the test
environment for RHEL no? If you don't want to be a tester than use and
enterprise level OS.


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Registerd Linux user No #267004
www.counter.li.org
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Old 07-04-2012, 01:10 AM
Robert Myers
 
Default And don't let the door hit you on the way out

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Joe Zeff <joe@zeff.us> wrote:

On 07/03/2012 04:10 PM, Robert Myers wrote:


Fedora

doesn't even aim at being a replacement for Windows.




And why should it? *That would be setting the bar far, far too low. *
You can say whatever snarky things you want to about Windows (and no one enjoys trashing Microsoft and its straight out of a Pixar movie management more than I do), BUT


Flash actually works for Windows, and I need Flash (I know...pathetic, isn't it?) AND
Vmware Player for Windows, unlike Red Hat's various experiments with virtualization, actually works in a way I can use.


A Windows box with a huge memory space and whatever mixture of XP, Fedora, CentOS, and Ubuntu (not to mention Cygwin) seemed finally Good Enough.

It is, apparently, not to be.

One possible approach to the shifting sands of the GUI is to stop using it.* Unfortunately reading through the crabbed and unreliable prose of man pages is something I now do only in desperation.* What's the difference between a lower case r and an upper case R?* You have to be socially-maladjusted to think that such a thing should occupy an important place in your life...but it does, because I use grep and regular expressions.* That's changed of course, but then I have to remember that it has changed, and I am getting old.


Maybe I'll be sufficiently frustrated with Ubuntu that something else will happen in the end, but, right now, it's looking like Windows for the laptop and anything but Fedora for everything else.

Robert Myers.




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Old 07-04-2012, 01:13 AM
Ed Greshko
 
Default And don't let the door hit you on the way out

On 07/04/2012 09:10 AM, Robert Myers wrote:
> Maybe I'll be sufficiently frustrated with Ubuntu that something else will happen
> in the end, but, right now, it's looking like Windows for the laptop and anything
> but Fedora for everything else.

Why not just go quietly? Nothing being said here is beneficial to you or the
community as a whole. It will only turn into a bitch/defense fest.

--
Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke
of the century. -- Dame Edna Everage
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Old 07-04-2012, 01:25 AM
David
 
Default And don't let the door hit you on the way out

On 7/3/2012 9:10 PM, Robert Myers wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Joe Zeff <joe@zeff.us
> <mailto:joe@zeff.us>> wrote:
>
> On 07/03/2012 04:10 PM, Robert Myers wrote:
>
> Fedora
> doesn't even aim at being a replacement for Windows.
>
>
> And why should it? That would be setting the bar far, far too low.
>
>
> You can say whatever snarky things you want to about Windows (and no one
> enjoys trashing Microsoft and its straight out of a Pixar movie
> management more than I do), BUT
>
> Flash actually works for Windows, and I need Flash (I know...pathetic,
> isn't it?) AND
> Vmware Player for Windows, unlike Red Hat's various experiments with
> virtualization, actually works in a way I can use.
>
> A Windows box with a huge memory space and whatever mixture of XP,
> Fedora, CentOS, and Ubuntu (not to mention Cygwin) seemed finally Good
> Enough.
>
> It is, apparently, not to be.
>
> One possible approach to the shifting sands of the GUI is to stop using
> it. Unfortunately reading through the crabbed and unreliable prose of
> man pages is something I now do only in desperation. What's the
> difference between a lower case r and an upper case R? You have to be
> socially-maladjusted to think that such a thing should occupy an
> important place in your life...but it does, because I use grep and
> regular expressions. That's changed of course, but then I have to
> remember that it has changed, and I am getting old.
>
> Maybe I'll be sufficiently frustrated with Ubuntu that something else
> will happen in the end, but, right now, it's looking like Windows for
> the laptop and anything but Fedora for everything else.
>
> Robert Myers.


Robert. A suggestion? Unless you really, really want to get into a flame
war and a pi$$ing contest here I would suggest that you just do what you
have to do and not reply to this thread. You will, probably, feel
better. That's up to you of course. Those us that don't give a da*m will
feel better. And those that will carry this thread on and on for days
and days can do a self-gratifying circle jerk.

Have a great day.

--

David
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Old 07-04-2012, 02:03 AM
Joe Zeff
 
Default And don't let the door hit you on the way out

On 07/03/2012 06:10 PM, Robert Myers wrote:

You can say whatever snarky things you want to about Windows (and no one
enjoys trashing Microsoft and its straight out of a Pixar movie
management more than I do),


I'm not being snarky. There are a number of things that Windows does
well, or that only work there. As an example, my sister used Ubuntu on
her desktop, but she also has a laptop running XP. One of the reasons
she needs it is the fact that some of the programs she needs to use for
her school work are Windows-specific and don't run properly for her
under Wine. And, of course, many of the best games don't run well under
Wine. When people ask me about Linux, I tell them why I use it. Then,
I tell them that if they're comfortable with Windows or if they need
Windows-specific programs, there's no reason for them to change.


However, there are also a number of (to me, at least) things that
Windows doesn't handle correctly. If it had a proper security model
there's be far less malware out there. Yes, I understand that one of
the reasons there's so much is simply the fact that it has the biggest
user base and many of them either don't have a clue about securing their
boxes or don't bother. And, from what I gather (I don't use it at all,
except at a club I belong to where the computers are all Windows boxes.)
even if you do take precautions, keeping your computer clean is a
constant battle. If Microsoft would do their job properly, you should
be able to put a newly-installed box on-line and not have to worry about
it getting infected before you can download and install the anti-virus
software. And that's a shame, really, because I find it hard to believe
that it's impossible to have the installation program lock the system
down so that this type of thing doesn't work.


Remember, Windows is designed as an OS for the masses, and it's designed
to be used mostly by people with no real understanding of computers or
how they work. Would you really want Linux to follow down that path?

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Old 07-04-2012, 02:28 AM
JD
 
Default And don't let the door hit you on the way out

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Joe Zeff <joe@zeff.us> wrote:




Remember, Windows is designed as an OS for the masses, and it's designed to be used mostly by people with no real understanding of computers or how they work.

And this is EXACTLY the reason why such an OS must of necessity be made

impervious to malware attacks instead of depending on the user to secure
the system. Any OS that gets infected just by opening an email message
attachment is ill designed from the get-go.

*

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Old 07-04-2012, 02:35 AM
Robert Myers
 
Default And don't let the door hit you on the way out

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 9:13 PM, Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko@greshko.com> wrote:

On 07/04/2012 09:10 AM, Robert Myers wrote:

> Maybe I'll be sufficiently frustrated with Ubuntu that something else will happen

> in the end, but, right now, it's looking like Windows for the laptop and anything

> but Fedora for everything else.



Why not just go quietly? *Nothing being said here is beneficial to you or the

community as a whole. *It will only turn into a bitch/defense fest.


Because I have a significant if not especially visible investment in both time and emotion. *I'm just not as visible as some of the more aggressive self-promoters [sustained and direct eye contact]. *I had hoped to fend off patronizing messages like yours with my subject line. *Clearly, I failed.

There is also just the outside chance that someone, rather than trying to make me into a Better Person [tm], might have a useful suggestion to make, which clearly you do not. *Do you *really* want to advise me against flaming?

Robert Myers.*
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