On 06/22/2012 11:47 AM, Daniel wrote:

On 06/22/2012 08:10 AM, Mike Wohlgemuth wrote:

On 06/20/2012 11:01 AM, Daniel wrote:


Your fatigue would largely have been avoided had the Gnome
developers proceeded differently. So perhaps you should complain
to them. ;-)


Wow. The arrogance in that statement is rather astounding.


Wow. Your resort to personally attacking me is rather astounding, as
also is your imputing arrogance to my making a point of pure logic.



You
seriously believe that I should complain to the Gnome developers
because there are people on a mailing list that is only tangentially
related to Gnome who can't stop beating a dead horse?


No. I actually don't believe that you should complain to anyone. I
don't believe that you should complain to the developers of Gnome; I
don't believe that you should complain on this list about those who
have a problem with Gnome; I don't believe that you should complain on
this list with those who believe that Gnome should not be the default
choice of Fedora. I don't see how it is that you imagine that the
second group is beating a dead horse and yet you are not. I don't see
how you think that the third group is beating a dead horse.


In any event, I see the second and third groups as trying to move a
horse whom they believe to be alive, whereas I don't know what you
might think that you're doing, but it doesn't look like an attempt to
be helpful.



1. No discussion on this list will likely ever impact Gnome
development. Go to the gnome devel list for that.


I made that point a while back, more than once. But those in the
third group are trying to effect Fedora's relationship to Gnome, given
its development arc.



2. The only likely scenario in which discussions on this list will
impact Fedora development is if one of the development team also
reads this list and takes it upon themselves to follow up on the
Fedora devel lists.


And even then, such a developer is unlikely to heed the cries. But
under what scenario do you imagine that people here will respond to
_your_ demands?



3. The vast majority of users of Fedora, whether or not they use
Gnome, could not care less about your opinions on the Gnome
development process, and do get tired of the repetition, and
telling them that it is their fault is insulting.


I'd like to see your polling data. I'd like to see polling dats that
shows that the majority of users _do_ care about most of the threads
on this list. I'd like to see polling data that shows that those
complaining about Gnome are going to respond to your demands that they
cease.


Uhh....guys? not to be a pain in the arse or anything, but does it
matter either way? I have a slew of e-mails of you guys going back and
forth, let's just leave it as "You have YOUR opinion......and He has
HIS" which is something we're all entitled to, and should therefore
respect them. I believe you both have valid points made, and I KNOW
there are people who feel like either one of you do regarding Gnome, I
DON'T believe that going "back & forth" will help in any case.....but
its been entertaining to say the least!...LoL!


EGO II
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On 06/23/2012 06:51 AM, Eddie G.O'Connor Jr-I wrote:


Wow. The arrogance in that statement is rather astounding.


Wow. Your resort to personally attacking me is rather astounding, as
also is your imputing arrogance to my making a point of pure logic.


<snip>


Uhh....guys? not to be a pain in the arse or anything, but does it
matter either way? I have a slew of e-mails of you guys going back and
forth, let's just leave it as "You have YOUR opinion......and He has
HIS" which is something we're all entitled to, and should therefore
respect them. I believe you both have valid points made, and I KNOW
there are people who feel like either one of you do regarding Gnome, I
DON'T believe that going "back & forth" will help in any case.....but
its been entertaining to say the least!...LoL!


Okay, now, go back and read the opinion that Mike Wohlgemuth actually
expressed, which began with the claim that I'm astonishingly arrogant.
Do you think that you're doing a particularly good job playing
peace-maker, when you insist that this is simply a matter of opinion
or that his opinion has a sound basis?


Moreover, when you refer to a "both" and "either" here, it shows that
you haven't been paying attention; there are more than two sorts of
opinions being expressed. Now, it's perfectly all right for you not
to pay attention, but not if you're subsequently going to pop-in and
express some blanket opinion about the merits of all sides.

I suspect that you're best-off just ignoring this particular thread.


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On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 08:20:05AM -0400, Eddie G.O'Connor Jr-I wrote:
> Uhh....guys? not to be a pain in the arse or anything, but does it
> matter either way? I have a slew of e-mails of you guys going back
> and forth, let's just leave it as "You have YOUR opinion......and He
[..]
> in any case.....but its been entertaining to say the least!...LoL!

Simply said, I like having discussions.

In any case, I guess it is time to stop responding in this one. I don't
want to overload this list with only these type of discussions.

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On 06/23/2012 10:09 AM, Daniel wrote:


Okay, now, go back and read the opinion that Mike Wohlgemuth actually
expressed, which began with the claim that I'm astonishingly arrogant.


I apologize if I misinterpreted your statement. Someone claimed that
they found gnome bashing tiresome. Your response was they should
complain to the Gnome developers. It seemed sort of analogous to
ordering a pizza in a restaurant and realizing it has anchovies on it.
You hate anchovies, but it was clearly labeled as coming with
anchovies. It seems at this point you could choose to take the
anchovies off and eat the rest of the pizza. Or you could talk to the
wait staff about resolving the issue. Or you could complain loudly to
all the other patrons, and when the other patrons express displeasure
with your actions, tell them that it is really the restaurant's fault.
This third option is what I find astonishingly arrogant.


Again, I apologize if I mistook your statement as advocating this third
option. I will stay out of this discussion from now on, because it isn't
really productive.


Woogie
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On 06/23/2012 07:59 AM, Mike Wohlgemuth wrote:


Someone claimed that they found gnome bashing tiresome. Your response
was they should complain to the Gnome developers.


No, that wasn't my response.

If one were going to kill a snake, then I would indeed _suggest_
smashing its head rather than its tail, but all that presupposes that
one should try to kill the snake.



It seemed sort of
analogous to ordering a pizza in a restaurant and realizing it has
anchovies on it. You hate anchovies, but it was clearly labeled as
coming with anchovies. It seems at this point you could choose to
take the anchovies off and eat the rest of the pizza. Or you could
talk to the wait staff about resolving the issue. Or you could
complain loudly to all the other patrons, and when the other patrons
express displeasure with your actions, tell them that it is really the
restaurant's fault.


Well, here's a rather better analogy, reworking yours:

We have a bunch of people who have been going to a pizza restaurant
for some years. And they find the pizza to be quite excellent. Then,
suddenly, it is changed. The old sort of pizza is removed from the
menu, and it is replaced with a new one that a contingent of
"regulars" loathe. So _they_ -- not just one hypothetical patron but
a bloc of them -- begin complaining not only to the staff, but on
Yelp! but in letters-to-the-editor. And people who want to read
_different_ letters-to-the-editor become annoyed, and start
complaining about the complaining.


(Note: You don't have to read this mailing list to use Gnome, nor to
Fedora with or without Gnome. Analogically speaking, the complaining
is _not_ in the restaurant.)


Of course, the restaurant has a right to change its offerings, but the
complainers have a right to complain. And the people complaining
about the complaining -- well, shouldn't they know what they got
themselves in for in reading other people's comments?


One answer to the people who don't like the pizza is to tell them to
go somewhere else (even if there's no other pizza place in town). One
answer to the people who don't like the complaints about the pizza is
to tell them to stop reading Yelp! and the letters-to-the-editor (even
if there's nothing else to read). And these answers aren't either/or;
one could embrace each.


And one could embrace both of these answers, while suggesting that
someone complaining about the complaining might do better to try to
smash the head of a snake than to attempt to stomp on its tail.



This third option is what I find astonishingly arrogant.


Well, your attempts to interpret my psychology are grossly incompetent.
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On 06/23/2012 10:09 AM, Daniel wrote:

On 06/23/2012 06:51 AM, Eddie G.O'Connor Jr-I wrote:


Wow. The arrogance in that statement is rather astounding.


Wow. Your resort to personally attacking me is rather astounding, as
also is your imputing arrogance to my making a point of pure logic.


<snip>


Uhh....guys? not to be a pain in the arse or anything, but does it
matter either way? I have a slew of e-mails of you guys going back and
forth, let's just leave it as "You have YOUR opinion......and He has
HIS" which is something we're all entitled to, and should therefore
respect them. I believe you both have valid points made, and I KNOW
there are people who feel like either one of you do regarding Gnome, I
DON'T believe that going "back & forth" will help in any case.....but
its been entertaining to say the least!...LoL!


Okay, now, go back and read the opinion that Mike Wohlgemuth actually
expressed, which began with the claim that I'm astonishingly arrogant.
Do you think that you're doing a particularly good job playing
peace-maker, when you insist that this is simply a matter of opinion
or that his opinion has a sound basis?


Moreover, when you refer to a "both" and "either" here, it shows that
you haven't been paying attention; there are more than two sorts of
opinions being expressed. Now, it's perfectly all right for you not
to pay attention, but not if you're subsequently going to pop-in and
express some blanket opinion about the merits of all sides.

I suspect that you're best-off just ignoring this particular thread.


While I don't consider myself on the level of most of the people here, I
also am not stupid enough to think my "blanket statement" will be
wonderfully and miraculously accepted by all. I was more trying to point
out that the same way you can send me a direct e-mail telling me....to
put it bluntly.... "mind my business"...couldn't you do the same in
regards to whomever it is you're at opposites with regarding opinion,
lack of facts, inclusion of facts, whether or not points are valid,
moot, frivolous, etc. I meant no harm in making the statements I made,
and stand by them......seriously.......if you want to hash out the
semantics of whom said what and in what order they were said, and what
information was actually requested as opposed to what was
"snipped".....omitted......spoken out of sequence etc. Then why not do
it one-on-one? as opposed to attaching it to a thread in a mailing list?
I don't "pop in" on amy of the threads.....I follow the consistently,
because I'm turning my entire focus on becoming Linux Certified and
every piece of information will help. Granted some of it might be so
minuscule that it probably won't even merit mention, but as I've learned
being a Windows LAN admin for some time, sometimes it's that one piece
of information (the exact place to go to when you want to delete
something that claims to be "un-deletable"......how to get info from an
application that has frozen or hung........walking through a "forest"
and checking the permissions and access rights of users in different
domains, and trying to get them to sync...etc.) So I read these e-mails
trying to hold on to every bit of info that seems relevant.....not to
become a snobby know-it-all, but to be able to sift through mt mental
"backlog" and find that ONE piece of info that'll help to save the
day......I apologize if you thought I was doing anything other than
that.....cheers!



EGO II


EGO II






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On 06/23/2012 10:23 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 08:20:05AM -0400, Eddie G.O'Connor Jr-I wrote:

Uhh....guys? not to be a pain in the arse or anything, but does it
matter either way? I have a slew of e-mails of you guys going back
and forth, let's just leave it as "You have YOUR opinion......and He

[..]

in any case.....but its been entertaining to say the least!...LoL!

Simply said, I like having discussions.

In any case, I guess it is time to stop responding in this one. I don't
want to overload this list with only these type of discussions.

I also love a good discussion, but my passion, my "fire" would be Logic,
and the natural progression of thought processes and the results,
findings, and solutions that evolve from them!....


EGO II

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On 06/23/2012 11:30 AM, Daniel wrote:

On 06/23/2012 07:59 AM, Mike Wohlgemuth wrote:


Someone claimed that they found gnome bashing tiresome. Your response
was they should complain to the Gnome developers.


No, that wasn't my response.

If one were going to kill a snake, then I would indeed _suggest_
smashing its head rather than its tail, but all that presupposes that
one should try to kill the snake.



It seemed sort of
analogous to ordering a pizza in a restaurant and realizing it has
anchovies on it. You hate anchovies, but it was clearly labeled as
coming with anchovies. It seems at this point you could choose to
take the anchovies off and eat the rest of the pizza. Or you could
talk to the wait staff about resolving the issue. Or you could
complain loudly to all the other patrons, and when the other patrons
express displeasure with your actions, tell them that it is really the
restaurant's fault.


Well, here's a rather better analogy, reworking yours:

We have a bunch of people who have been going to a pizza restaurant
for some years. And they find the pizza to be quite excellent. Then,
suddenly, it is changed. The old sort of pizza is removed from the
menu, and it is replaced with a new one that a contingent of
"regulars" loathe. So _they_ -- not just one hypothetical patron but
a bloc of them -- begin complaining not only to the staff, but on
Yelp! but in letters-to-the-editor. And people who want to read
_different_ letters-to-the-editor become annoyed, and start
complaining about the complaining.


(Note: You don't have to read this mailing list to use Gnome, nor to
Fedora with or without Gnome. Analogically speaking, the complaining
is _not_ in the restaurant.)


Of course, the restaurant has a right to change its offerings, but the
complainers have a right to complain. And the people complaining
about the complaining -- well, shouldn't they know what they got
themselves in for in reading other people's comments?


One answer to the people who don't like the pizza is to tell them to
go somewhere else (even if there's no other pizza place in town). One
answer to the people who don't like the complaints about the pizza is
to tell them to stop reading Yelp! and the letters-to-the-editor (even
if there's nothing else to read). And these answers aren't either/or;
one could embrace each.


And one could embrace both of these answers, while suggesting that
someone complaining about the complaining might do better to try to
smash the head of a snake than to attempt to stomp on its tail.



This third option is what I find astonishingly arrogant.


Well, your attempts to interpret my psychology are grossly incompetent.


Stunned silence..#headspinnig!

You my friend would give Dr. Sigmund Freud chills at night and
goosebumps!.....LoL!



EGO II
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On 06/23/2012 11:17 PM, Eddie G.O'Connor Jr-I wrote:


Stunned silence..#headspinnig!


If the analogy made your head-spin, then you couldn't have followed
the actual discussion, which involved a significant later omitted by
the analogy (exactly that some participants were not trying to change
Gnome, but trying to change Fedora's relationship to Gnome).



You my friend would give Dr. Sigmund Freud chills at night and
goosebumps!.....LoL!


Were Freud here, I'd be mildly curious as to his theory of why you
keep injecting disorder and insult. If you really don't think that
the discussion should continue, then don't stir the pot.

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Eddie G.O'Connor Jr-I wrote:


While I don't consider myself on the level of most of the people here,
I also am not stupid enough to think my "blanket statement" will be
wonderfully and miraculously accepted by all.


The issue wasn't whether a blanket statement would be accepted by all.
The issue was whether you could make peace by telling a group of
disputants, amongst other things, that there was some sort of
legitimacy in one disputant having called another arrogant. (You
probably did not _intend_ to do that, but you managed to do it
none-the-less, as a consequence of not having actually followed what
was being said.)



I was more trying to point out that the same way you can send me a
direct e-mail telling me....to put it bluntly.... "mind my
business"...couldn't you do the same in regards to whomever it is
you're at opposites with regarding opinion, lack of facts, inclusion
of facts, whether or not points are valid, moot, frivolous, etc.


Again, you're writing as if there are just two sides here (so that
there are "opposites"); there are at least three distinct positions
her, and possibly more.



I meant no harm in making the statements I made, and stand by
them......seriously.......if you want to hash out the semantics of
whom said what and in what order they were said, and what information
was actually requested as opposed to what was
"snipped".....omitted......spoken out of sequence etc. Then why not do
it one-on-one? as opposed to attaching it to a thread in a mailing list?


You also write as if there are just two disputants; there have been
almost 40! One-to-one works with two people, each only concerned with
the views of the other. Otherwise, one uses something such as (tah
dah!) a mailing list.



I don't "pop in" on amy of the threads.....I follow the consistently,


Attempting to follow and participating are two different things. You
indeed popped-in on a discussion, and it is plain that your prior
attempts to follow it had been unsuccessful.

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