On 06/22/2012 08:10 AM, Mike Wohlgemuth wrote:

On 06/20/2012 11:01 AM, Daniel wrote:


Your fatigue would largely have been avoided had the Gnome
developers proceeded differently. So perhaps you should complain
to them. ;-)


Wow. The arrogance in that statement is rather astounding.


Wow. Your resort to personally attacking me is rather astounding, as
also is your imputing arrogance to my making a point of pure logic.



You
seriously believe that I should complain to the Gnome developers
because there are people on a mailing list that is only tangentially
related to Gnome who can't stop beating a dead horse?


No. I actually don't believe that you should complain to anyone. I
don't believe that you should complain to the developers of Gnome; I
don't believe that you should complain on this list about those who
have a problem with Gnome; I don't believe that you should complain on
this list with those who believe that Gnome should not be the default
choice of Fedora. I don't see how it is that you imagine that the
second group is beating a dead horse and yet you are not. I don't see
how you think that the third group is beating a dead horse.


In any event, I see the second and third groups as trying to move a
horse whom they believe to be alive, whereas I don't know what you
might think that you're doing, but it doesn't look like an attempt to
be helpful.



1. No discussion on this list will likely ever impact Gnome
development. Go to the gnome devel list for that.


I made that point a while back, more than once. But those in the
third group are trying to effect Fedora's relationship to Gnome, given
its development arc.



2. The only likely scenario in which discussions on this list will
impact Fedora development is if one of the development team also
reads this list and takes it upon themselves to follow up on the
Fedora devel lists.


And even then, such a developer is unlikely to heed the cries. But
under what scenario do you imagine that people here will respond to
_your_ demands?



3. The vast majority of users of Fedora, whether or not they use
Gnome, could not care less about your opinions on the Gnome
development process, and do get tired of the repetition, and
telling them that it is their fault is insulting.


I'd like to see your polling data. I'd like to see polling dats that
shows that the majority of users _do_ care about most of the threads
on this list. I'd like to see polling data that shows that those
complaining about Gnome are going to respond to your demands that they
cease.

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On 06/22/2012 08:10 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 06:27:14AM -0700, Daniel wrote:

On 06/22/2012 05:00 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:45:06PM -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 06/21/2012 09:36 PM, Roger wrote:



As I understand it to date the devs say:
"Go away", rightly so,
and "Put up or shut up", again rightly so.


I've never heard complaints about the KDE devs doing that, and I
know that the Xfce devs don't. AFAIK, only the Gnome devs say that.


Citation needed! :P


I hope that you're not asking for a citation to the effect that the
KDE or Xfce developers_don't_ respond to complaints with "Go away!"
nor with "Put up or shut up!" and are simply asking for
substantiation that Gnome developers_have_.


In Wikipedia "citation needed" is added to prove a claim.


Right; but the question was whether you were asking for a _positive_
proof of an _negative_ claim.



Basically a
reference to a study showing that in general GNOME developers give this
answer and secondly that XFCE as well as KDE developers don't do this.


So, it indeed appears that you were demanding a positive proof of a
negative claim.


The claim that Gnome developers tell people to kiss off is a positive
claim, one establishes it by pointing to an example of one of them
doing so.


The claim that KDE and Xfce developers don't do this is a negative claim.


I think it is somewhat normal to ask for more details.


What sort of _details_ could one find in such an _absence_?


And I understand
that proving a negative is difficult (XFCE/KDE), but that should still
be possible (sampling of all the answers).


And how would one prove that the sampling were representative?

(Do note that, while I have plainly agreed with Roger and Joe about
what has come from the Gnome developers, I have _not_ taken a position
on whether the KDE or Xfce developers do the same thing. I've just
point to the active absurdity of wanting a _citation_ to prove a claim
that they _don't_ do it.)



In this latter case, what would you do with the substantiation? If
your response would be to shrug or to embrace the acts of
rejection,it would hardly be worth the effort of providing the
substantiation. If, on the other hand, you promise to pour warm,
stale beer on one of those developers, then I for one will be happy
to track down an instance. :-;


So in short: you have a belief, no basis for it, but cannot be bothered
to properly investigate. You make a judgement about GNOME developers,
and when someone from GNOME asks for details, there are none.


No. In short I have a belief, and a basis for it, but don't want to
slog back through the communications that I've read in an attempt to
find those in which Gnome developers essentially said what Roger and
Joe have claimed they say (Roger with approval). And you want me to
slog back through it without expectation of profit; you've even held
onto the option of saying "So what?" or "Durn'd tootin'!" Plainly
it'd be a waste of my time.



Glad you cleared that up for me


Oh, I'm not trying to clear it up for you. I'm trying to clear it up
for anyone else who might be reading. ;-)

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On 06/22/2012 07:34 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:

I think it is somewhat normal to ask for more details. And I understand
that proving a negative is difficult (XFCE/KDE), but that should still
be possible (sampling of all the answers).


It's well known that the Gnome devs avoid the user mailing lists and
forums. I don't know about KDE, but at least one of the Xfce core
developers is a regular on their help forum and is always quite helpful.

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On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 10:14:46AM -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 06/22/2012 07:34 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:
> >I think it is somewhat normal to ask for more details. And I understand
> >that proving a negative is difficult (XFCE/KDE), but that should still
> >be possible (sampling of all the answers).
>
> It's well known that the Gnome devs avoid the user mailing lists and
> forums. I don't know about KDE, but at least one of the Xfce core
> developers is a regular on their help forum and is always quite
> helpful.

You snipped the bit I was asking about:
| As I understand it to date the devs say:
| Go away", rightly so,
| and "Put up or shut up", again rightly so.

Now, it is cool that you try and change the subject. But please first
answer my first question please. Cannot have a discussion if you new
things are brought up without any response to my questions.

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On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 09:12:30AM -0700, Daniel wrote:
> On 06/22/2012 08:10 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:
> >On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 06:27:14AM -0700, Daniel wrote:
> >>>On 06/22/2012 05:00 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:
> >>>>>On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:45:06PM -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>On 06/21/2012 09:36 PM, Roger wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>As I understand it to date the devs say:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>"Go away", rightly so,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>and "Put up or shut up", again rightly so.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>I've never heard complaints about the KDE devs doing that, and I
> >>>>>>>>>know that the Xfce devs don't. AFAIK, only the Gnome devs say that.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Citation needed! :P
> >>>
> >>>I hope that you're not asking for a citation to the effect that the
> >>>KDE or Xfce developers_don't_ respond to complaints with "Go away!"
> >>>nor with "Put up or shut up!" and are simply asking for
> >>>substantiation that Gnome developers_have_.
> >
> >In Wikipedia "citation needed" is added to prove a claim.
>
> Right; but the question was whether you were asking for a _positive_
> proof of an _negative_ claim.
>
> >Basically a
> >reference to a study showing that in general GNOME developers give this
> >answer and secondly that XFCE as well as KDE developers don't do this.
>
> So, it indeed appears that you were demanding a positive proof of a
> negative claim.
>
> The claim that Gnome developers tell people to kiss off is a
> positive claim, one establishes it by pointing to an example of one
> of them doing so.

Not really, you need to prove in happens in general. You talked about
GNOEM developers. That is not one person, that is multiple people.

Suggest to be careful when phrasing things because I will ask about it.

> The claim that KDE and Xfce developers don't do this is a negative claim.
>
> >I think it is somewhat normal to ask for more details.
>
> What sort of _details_ could one find in such an _absence_?

I already explained that.

> >And I understand
> >that proving a negative is difficult (XFCE/KDE), but that should still
> >be possible (sampling of all the answers).
>
> And how would one prove that the sampling were representative?

Hey, you claimed things, don't pin this on me!

> (Do note that, while I have plainly agreed with Roger and Joe about
> what has come from the Gnome developers, I have _not_ taken a
> position on whether the KDE or Xfce developers do the same thing.
> I've just point to the active absurdity of wanting a _citation_ to
> prove a claim that they _don't_ do it.)

Yet you're totally fine to still claim things about GNOME developers?

right!

> >>>In this latter case, what would you do with the substantiation? If
> >>>your response would be to shrug or to embrace the acts of
> >>>rejection,it would hardly be worth the effort of providing the
> >>>substantiation. If, on the other hand, you promise to pour warm,
> >>>stale beer on one of those developers, then I for one will be happy
> >>>to track down an instance. :-;
> >
> >So in short: you have a belief, no basis for it, but cannot be bothered
> >to properly investigate. You make a judgement about GNOME developers,
> >and when someone from GNOME asks for details, there are none.
>
> No. In short I have a belief, and a basis for it, but don't want to
> slog back through the communications that I've read in an attempt to
> find those in which Gnome developers essentially said what Roger and
> Joe have claimed they say (Roger with approval). And you want me to
> slog back through it without expectation of profit; you've even held
> onto the option of saying "So what?" or "Durn'd tootin'!" Plainly
> it'd be a waste of my time.

I want to you back up your claims, indeed. I'm involved with GNOME, you
claim something, but someone from GNOME asking for details is too
cumbersome?

Damn!

> >Glad you cleared that up for me
>
> Oh, I'm not trying to clear it up for you. I'm trying to clear it
> up for anyone else who might be reading. ;-)

So anyone who agrees with you is ok. But the one person involved with
GNOME cannot get any response?
I think you're making things really clear :P

I welcome you to go to FOSDEM. I almost always go there. Talk in person,
not this anonymous internet stuff. Don't worry, I'm more polite on
mailing lists :P

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On 06/22/2012 01:33 PM, Olav Vitters wrote:

Now, it is cool that you try and change the subject. But please first
answer my first question please. Cannot have a discussion if you new
things are brought up without any response to my questions.


I wasn't intending to change the subject. I was only giving information
about one aspect of your question (and making it clear what I do and
don't know) so I only quoted the part that appeared relevant.

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On 06/22/2012 01:39 PM, Olav Vitters wrote:

I want to you back up your claims, indeed. I'm involved with GNOME, you
claim something, but someone from GNOME asking for details is too
cumbersome?


Back when I used Gnome, I occasionally posted questions on a Gnome
forum. I was told there, several times, that the Gnome devs did not
follow this forum (I got the impression that they didn't follow *any*
forum, but I don't think that was actually stated.) and that the only
way to ask them a question was on their own list.

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Not a reply to anyone in particular. But I have to disagree with OP. He did not need to apologize. The feeling was like that he felt that something was just not right. Now developers have their way of looking at things.

From what I see, I felt the same way when KDE moved from 3.5.X to 4.0.X, and now 4.X. The were destroying a great desktop which one grew to like. Now KDE 4.X is a great desktop and has come along in many ways I like it more than what I did in the 4.0.X days in Fedora 9. I remember having a comfort zone in GNOME 2.X and using it to get away from those bad times [with kde 4.x].

Now, with the Gnome 3.0.X experience many things changed, paradigm shifts. Many folks had comfort zones with GNOME 2.3X and they changed everything. We need to be patient and see that GNOME 3.X will come along and fix their mistakes and make it better and better much like KDE 4.X did.

As a matter of fact we can preview how GNOME 3.5.X will look like:

http://blogs.gnome.org/mclasen/2012/06/22/live-cds/

I did notice the changes, and I saw the missing/old functionality, but it is coming back and with time we can feel good about GNOME 3.X again.

I am a trouble-maker, a rebel and I see where many are coming from, and I agree with both sides The users missing the functionality and the developers thoughts/ideas as to why they did what they did. (they were most likely targetting tablets/small form gadgets like phones, etc), the traditional pc are different and accomodations are welcomed to treat the devices differences.

This is not a can we get along post or anything like it. I have Fedora [machines with Gnome 3, XFCE, LXDE and had one with KDE but (hard drive has died and I need to replace it ] I like each one for what they are and don't mind the differences that they have.

Best Regards,


Antonio
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On Fri, 2012-06-22 at 14:34 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
> Back when I used Gnome, I occasionally posted questions on a Gnome
> forum. I was told there, several times, that the Gnome devs did not
> follow this forum (I got the impression that they didn't follow *any*
> forum, but I don't think that was actually stated.) and that the only
> way to ask them a question was on their own list.

Is that any different to other projects? e.g. Fedora developers use
their developer list, rather than the user list, because that's their
interest (making the software do what it's designed to do, however bad
the design; rather than the day to day minutia about how to use it that
the user list generally discusses, with far more messages than they want
to read).

Some projects have a plethora of different lists (design, debugging,
admin, usage, advocacy) and you really do need to use the right list to
get any results. Perhaps a consensus from one list may cross over to
the other (e.g. a great design idea, once nutted out), but endless
debate in the wrong arena goes nowhere.


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On 06/22/2012 04:55 PM, Olav Vitters wrote:



The claim that Gnome developers tell people to kiss off is a
positive claim, one establishes it by pointing to an example of one
of them doing so.


Not really, you need to prove in happens in general. You talked about
GNOEM developers. That is not one person, that is multiple people.


Olav, if you want me to bother to reply (beyond this), then you're
going to have to clean-up the mess that you're creating by
misrepresenting the stage at which remarks were made. For example, I
didn't make the remarks that you quote three moves back; I made them
one move back. If find that your latest remarks are shot-through with
this sort of confusion.


If you turn the discussion into a rat's nest of inappropriate
indentation (and of needlessly requoting things said a few iterations
ago) then at best no one but you and I would bother to read, and I
really don't write for your benefit.


Second, I suggest that, while you engage in that clean-up (assuming
that you don't instead take the cheap out now), you reconsider your
reliance upon straw-man argumentation. It's pretty easy to explain
the differences between what _I_ have actually said and the various
things that you claim that I've said.

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