Am 17.05.2012 23:22, schrieb Timothy Murphy:
>>> I don't consider Fedora suitable for a server.
>>
>> your opinion
>
> and I suspect that of most people who have to make this choice.
>
>> if you need a recent software stack and have to
>> compile all things at your won while libraries
>> are outdated you are going through hell
>
> I find CentOS-6 has everything I need on a server.
> I don't feel any urge to re-compile libraries.
> I have complete confidence that RedHat will do this for me if necessary.
> If I want to do anything fancy I do it on a laptop.

currently this may be true
version 6 is quite recent

but what in 5 years?

if you need newer PHP, MySQL, Postfix, DBmail, Apache
you have a problem even with compile it at your own
because you can not solve build-deps

caused by the large jumps you can usually not upgrade
a CentOS installation and having a lot of machines
and renstall them all few years is not funny

on the other hand i have here 20 fedora servers which
are beoming more over the time based on the same
goldenmaster with a identical coresystem installed with
F9 and currently on F16, they are all hardly tuned
and optimizd for exatcly their needs and replace hardware
is a single click to move them uninterrupted

dist-upgrades are a topic in virtual environments

as i installed them all you needed VMware Tools
for basic paravirtualized hardware which is in
the meantime in the upstream.kernel

another example now for phyical hardware:
kernel 3.4 will support replace a RADI10 with bigger
disks and expand the RAID volumes - you will never
see this in CentOS6, with fedora in a few weeks it is
possible

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On 17May2012 08:30, Dave Ihnat <dihnat@dminet.com> wrote:
| It would make sense to offer the option to disable swap, hibernate,
| standby, etc.; but don't remove it from the system. To do so is to say
| *you* know better than *I* do how capable my hardware may be; that's
| positively Microsoft- or Apple-ish.

To be fair, Apple at least do know "how capable my hardware may be"
since they make their own.

But yes, end users should have the say, even if the OS makes default
decisions.
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If it can't be turned off, it's not a feature. - Karl Heuer
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On 17May2012 23:52, Steve Underwood <steveu@coppice.org> wrote:
| On 05/17/2012 11:15 PM, Tim wrote:
| > On Thu, 2012-05-17 at 08:24 -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
| >> Hibernate and suspend are no longer necessary or helpful functions
| >> either (on machines sold today).
| > I suspend on my Laptop, all the time. Quite apart from the speed issue,
| > it's handy to be able to halt and resume, everything.
| Quite right. Only someone who never uses a laptop could think hibernate
| and suspend are no longer needed.

Yep. I'm often on a Macbook (yes, not Linux - that's on the home server)
and one of the real joys is, when I run out of time somewhere (the
train arrives, etc) just shut the lid and stuff it into into my bag. No
planning or special arrangements. It suspends to RAM, and if the battery
really does go flat later, restores from the hard drive when I attach
real power.

On a laptop this is a great boon.
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On 17May2012 11:33, Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net> wrote:
| Windows 7 also has a nice thing that Linux does not: a hybrid mode
| between suspend and hibernate. With that, when you suspend, it goes
| through the hiberate steps (writing what it needs to disk), but then
| puts the system into suspend. If the battery runs dead or the power
| fails, you can restore from hibernate. If the system hasn't lost power,
| when you restore it is just a wake from suspend.

The MacBooks also.

I should point out that this all happens after I shut the lid. So to a
degree it does not matter how long it takes to save to disc, because I
am not sitting around waiting for it to happen.

So:
shut lid
Mac runs hibernate disc write (sits with LED on steady still)
...then suspends (LED starts its slow "I'm asleep" pulse)

Cheers,
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On 05/17/2012 02:13 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:



Am 17.05.2012 23:08, schrieb Joe Zeff:

If you assume he's talking about his own specific needs, not the
general case, what he writes makes much more sense.


uhm it is clear and logical for me that i speak about
my needs and expierience in the last 10 years

for who else could i?



It may be clear and logical to you, but the way you write makes it look
like yours is The One True Way and that you expect everybody else to do
things your way. This, BTW, is why you end up in so many arguments;
your writing style is both inflexible and argumentative. You might want
to work on that.

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On 17May2012 22:33, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
| i said only suspned-to-disk is unuseable if you have
| a modern machine with >= 16 GB RAM or a notebook with
| 8 RAM and slow notebook-disks

If all this happens _after_ I close the laptop lid I often don't care.
Admittedly, I'm using a machine that sleeps/suspends - it ony has to
come back from a real hibernate if the laptop battery goes flat before I
reopen it.
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On 18.05.2012, Reindl Harald wrote:

> buying a cheaper machine than 800 € results usually
> in buy much more machines in a relative short term

Maybe for you, but not for folks who hardly can afford a low end
machine. Not having a computer is no longer an alternative these days
either.

> cheaper than disks killed by power-cycles and my
> current homeserver eats around 50-60 watt at
> normal operations - you can run this machine
> some years before costs for electricity beats
> costs for a single disk dying due power cycles

You are quite obviously not clear over that most of the people using
computers do not know at all what a power cycle is..

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Reindl Harald wrote:

> waking up from suspend to disk takes much longer as a cold
start

You've repeated this several times,
so I thought I'd test it on my laptop,
a Thinkpad T60 running Fedora-16/KDE.

I did each test twice.
Hibernate (ie suspend to disk) and shutdown
both took the same time, 18-20 seconds.
Waking from hibernation took 40-41 seconds.
Cold boot + login took 72-73 seconds,
not counting the time to enter login and wallet paswords.
The laptop was unusable for a further 30 seconds,
due I presume to disk activity, mainly virtuoso-t and
firefox.

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Am 18.05.2012 10:36, schrieb Timothy Murphy:
> You've repeated this several times,
> so I thought I'd test it on my laptop,
> a Thinkpad T60 running Fedora-16/KDE.
>
> I did each test twice.
> Hibernate (ie suspend to disk) and shutdown
> both took the same time, 18-20 seconds.
> Waking from hibernation took 40-41 seconds.
> Cold boot + login took 72-73 seconds

cold boot: 25 seconds
login: 10 seconds

> not counting the time to enter login and wallet paswords

5 seconds for me
bother different passwords with 19 chars

so i am around 40 seconds too

additionally i have to log out and switch
to a console if i have used my home-machine
between to sync back changes consistently

many programs do not like sync back their profiles
when they are running

> The laptop was unusable for a further 30 seconds,
> due I presume to disk activity, mainly virtuoso-t and
> firefox.

well, i have the same unuseable expierience waking up
machines from suspend on a changed location because
dns-caches are holding LAN addresses from the company
and freezed connections since the IP's are no longer
available

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Am 18.05.2012 10:18, schrieb Heinz Diehl:
> On 18.05.2012, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>> buying a cheaper machine than 800 € results usually
>> in buy much more machines in a relative short term
>
> Maybe for you, but not for folks who hardly can afford a low end
> machine. Not having a computer is no longer an alternative these days
> either.

10 years ago i lived more than 3 years without a job
and in this time you have not much money

but that was never a reason to buy low quality

> You are quite obviously not clear over that most of the people
> using computers do not know at all what a power cycle is..

this is not a technical argument
educate them

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