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Old 02-18-2012, 07:17 PM
les
 
Default Desktop desires and questions

HI, everyone,
I know that this has been discussed before, and I will go back and read
more of that.

I want more efficient use of my desktop. Pretty is nice for most
people and of course design driven types, but I am a technophile, closer
to Sheldon (of big bang theory) than normal people. I know that.

Here is what I find in using the desktop as it exists in F16:

The need to click to get to the computer is annoying at its very best
and a real vocabulary expander in normal use. Every time I use one
application and I want to access another I have to click
"activities"
my windows shrink....
and I have to move the mouse to
"applications"
click
I get the menubar I should have in the first place
of course its on the opposite side of the screen and I now have
to mouse over there and click
"topic" (and the applications are somehow scattered by my view)
which should be a pullright to a menu
but which sprinkles applications all over the screen.
mouse to my application
click
"my application"
And finally my application comes up.
Oh, yes, I do have a 23" monitor, so the route of crossing the desktop
will get worse when I upgrade or go to multiple monitors later this
year.

This is so ergonomically inefficient, so slowing that it adversely
impacts my progress.

Anyway, that is only the most irritating bit I have found so far, but it
is worse. I don't see anyway to move the icons, change their sizes,
move them to various menus, expand the menus, or do anything at all to
change the current layout which is not at all conducive to my work. I
put this off long enough to hope that these issues had been addressed,
but they are not.

I don't want to start a flame war. I don't want to start a debate
about desktop managers (I know there are many out there) Nor do I wish
to castigate anyone. I want to just make the thing do what I want
without a whole lot of deep investigation into XML files.

I want to know where the documents and or utilities are that will let
me do something to improve my working environment and get back to
efficiency. If you have useful information, please send it on. I am
sure I am not the only one who wants this information, nor should it be
hand editing xml files, although if that is the only method, I will do
it until I get too frustrated with Fedora. AT this point I will not
give the disks to a friend who wants to use Fedora, because he is sight
impaired and this desktop will not work. That is a real affront to
disabled people and should spark some kind of action by everyone
involved.

Please keep it civil and provide solutions for this desktop, don't say
change desktops, don't start flaming, just help me and others get this
thing to do what we need.

With all that said, the basic needs as I see it are:
1. a way to get a list type menu instead of icons
2. a way to move the icons (if a list is not possible) or listing to
different top level applications menus.
3. Get the applications menu on screen all the time as a pulldown.
4. ability to change icons by right clicking on the current icon and
selecting a "change icon" menu which will open a file navigator.
5. remove the "activities" switch and put the windows and applications
buttons in its place with pull downs optional.
6. remove the "favorites" and just let us put the icons on the desktop
if we so desire.
7. do whatever else can be done to allow font selection, including
fontsize as well as icon size for the desktop. This is an HID
requirement anyway.
8. Stop the messing around with the open desktop in any way whatsoever.
It is distracting and interferes with efficiency.


Oh, and I did do some Google-ing, but got very little useful
information. Since Fedora is the cutting edge, lets make it cut a good
swath. Thanks.

Regards,
Les Howell

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Old 02-18-2012, 07:27 PM
Genes MailLists
 
Default Desktop desires and questions

On 02/18/2012 03:17 PM, les wrote:
> HI, everyone,
> I know that this has been discussed before, and I will go back and read
> more of that.
>
> I want more efficient use of my desktop. Pretty is nice for most
> people and of course design driven types, but I am a technophile, closer
> to Sheldon (of big bang theory) than normal people. I know that.
>

If you don't like Gnome Shell then don't use it .. no flame war - if
you like it use it :-)

You have other choices such as kde (which is really nice and fast and
has what you're looking for) as well as xfce (lightweight, very fast and
no thrills plain). From what you wrote you really should just switch to
kde ... it will suit your needs. And if you like activities - it has
that too .. :-)


gene

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Old 02-18-2012, 07:58 PM
Steven Stern
 
Default Desktop desires and questions

On 02/18/2012 02:17 PM, les wrote:
> HI, everyone,
> I know that this has been discussed before, and I will go back and read
> more of that.
>
> I want more efficient use of my desktop. Pretty is nice for most
> people and of course design driven types, but I am a technophile, closer
> to Sheldon (of big bang theory) than normal people. I know that.
>
> Here is what I find in using the desktop as it exists in F16:
>
> The need to click to get to the computer is annoying at its very best
> and a real vocabulary expander in normal use. Every time I use one
> application and I want to access another I have to click
> "activities"
> my windows shrink....
> and I have to move the mouse to
> "applications"
> click
> I get the menubar I should have in the first place
> of course its on the opposite side of the screen and I now have
> to mouse over there and click
> "topic" (and the applications are somehow scattered by my view)
> which should be a pullright to a menu
> but which sprinkles applications all over the screen.
> mouse to my application
> click
> "my application"
> And finally my application comes up.
> Oh, yes, I do have a 23" monitor, so the route of crossing the desktop
> will get worse when I upgrade or go to multiple monitors later this
> year.
>
> This is so ergonomically inefficient, so slowing that it adversely
> impacts my progress.
>
> Anyway, that is only the most irritating bit I have found so far, but it
> is worse. I don't see anyway to move the icons, change their sizes,
> move them to various menus, expand the menus, or do anything at all to
> change the current layout which is not at all conducive to my work. I
> put this off long enough to hope that these issues had been addressed,
> but they are not.
>
> I don't want to start a flame war. I don't want to start a debate
> about desktop managers (I know there are many out there) Nor do I wish
> to castigate anyone. I want to just make the thing do what I want
> without a whole lot of deep investigation into XML files.
>
> I want to know where the documents and or utilities are that will let
> me do something to improve my working environment and get back to
> efficiency. If you have useful information, please send it on. I am
> sure I am not the only one who wants this information, nor should it be
> hand editing xml files, although if that is the only method, I will do
> it until I get too frustrated with Fedora. AT this point I will not
> give the disks to a friend who wants to use Fedora, because he is sight
> impaired and this desktop will not work. That is a real affront to
> disabled people and should spark some kind of action by everyone
> involved.
>
> Please keep it civil and provide solutions for this desktop, don't say
> change desktops, don't start flaming, just help me and others get this
> thing to do what we need.
>
> With all that said, the basic needs as I see it are:
> 1. a way to get a list type menu instead of icons
> 2. a way to move the icons (if a list is not possible) or listing to
> different top level applications menus.
> 3. Get the applications menu on screen all the time as a pulldown.
> 4. ability to change icons by right clicking on the current icon and
> selecting a "change icon" menu which will open a file navigator.
> 5. remove the "activities" switch and put the windows and applications
> buttons in its place with pull downs optional.
> 6. remove the "favorites" and just let us put the icons on the desktop
> if we so desire.
> 7. do whatever else can be done to allow font selection, including
> fontsize as well as icon size for the desktop. This is an HID
> requirement anyway.
> 8. Stop the messing around with the open desktop in any way whatsoever.
> It is distracting and interferes with efficiency.
>
>
> Oh, and I did do some Google-ing, but got very little useful
> information. Since Fedora is the cutting edge, lets make it cut a good
> swath. Thanks.
>
> Regards,
> Les Howell
>


I'm very happy with XFCE4 and avant-windows-navigator

--
-- Steve
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Old 02-18-2012, 09:13 PM
Aaron Konstam
 
Default Desktop desires and questions

On Sat, 2012-02-18 at 14:58 -0600, Steven Stern wrote:
> On 02/18/2012 02:17 PM, les wrote:
> > HI, everyone,
> > I know that this has been discussed before, and I will go back and read
> > more of that.
> >
> > I want more efficient use of my desktop. Pretty is nice for most
> > people and of course design driven types, but I am a technophile, closer
> > to Sheldon (of big bang theory) than normal people. I know that.
> >
> > Here is what I find in using the desktop as it exists in F16:
> >
> > The need to click to get to the computer is annoying at its very best
> > and a real vocabulary expander in normal use. Every time I use one
> > application and I want to access another I have to click
> > "activities"
> > my windows shrink....
> > and I have to move the mouse to
> > "applications"
> > click
> > I get the menubar I should have in the first place
> > of course its on the opposite side of the screen and I now have
> > to mouse over there and click
> > "topic" (and the applications are somehow scattered by my view)
> > which should be a pullright to a menu
> > but which sprinkles applications all over the screen.
> > mouse to my application
> > click
> > "my application"
> > And finally my application comes up.
> > Oh, yes, I do have a 23" monitor, so the route of crossing the desktop
> > will get worse when I upgrade or go to multiple monitors later this
> > year.
> >
> > This is so ergonomically inefficient, so slowing that it adversely
> > impacts my progress.
> >
> > Anyway, that is only the most irritating bit I have found so far, but it
> > is worse. I don't see anyway to move the icons, change their sizes,
> > move them to various menus, expand the menus, or do anything at all to
> > change the current layout which is not at all conducive to my work. I
> > put this off long enough to hope that these issues had been addressed,
> > but they are not.
> >
> > I don't want to start a flame war. I don't want to start a debate
> > about desktop managers (I know there are many out there) Nor do I wish
> > to castigate anyone. I want to just make the thing do what I want
> > without a whole lot of deep investigation into XML files.
> >
> > I want to know where the documents and or utilities are that will let
> > me do something to improve my working environment and get back to
> > efficiency. If you have useful information, please send it on. I am
> > sure I am not the only one who wants this information, nor should it be
> > hand editing xml files, although if that is the only method, I will do
> > it until I get too frustrated with Fedora. AT this point I will not
> > give the disks to a friend who wants to use Fedora, because he is sight
> > impaired and this desktop will not work. That is a real affront to
> > disabled people and should spark some kind of action by everyone
> > involved.
> >
> > Please keep it civil and provide solutions for this desktop, don't say
> > change desktops, don't start flaming, just help me and others get this
> > thing to do what we need.
> >
> > With all that said, the basic needs as I see it are:
> > 1. a way to get a list type menu instead of icons
> > 2. a way to move the icons (if a list is not possible) or listing to
> > different top level applications menus.
> > 3. Get the applications menu on screen all the time as a pulldown.
> > 4. ability to change icons by right clicking on the current icon and
> > selecting a "change icon" menu which will open a file navigator.
> > 5. remove the "activities" switch and put the windows and applications
> > buttons in its place with pull downs optional.
> > 6. remove the "favorites" and just let us put the icons on the desktop
> > if we so desire.
> > 7. do whatever else can be done to allow font selection, including
> > fontsize as well as icon size for the desktop. This is an HID
> > requirement anyway.
> > 8. Stop the messing around with the open desktop in any way whatsoever.
> > It is distracting and interferes with efficiency.
> >
> >
> > Oh, and I did do some Google-ing, but got very little useful
> > information. Since Fedora is the cutting edge, lets make it cut a good
> > swath. Thanks.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Les Howell
> >
>
>
> I'm very happy with XFCE4 and avant-windows-navigator
>
> --
> -- Steve

I agree with Steve hat Gnome 3 is not fo you considering what you want
to do.
--
================================================== =====================
I like the way ONLY their mouths move ... They look like DYING OYSTERS
================================================== =====================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam@sbcglobal.net

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Old 02-18-2012, 09:47 PM
Cameron Simpson
 
Default Desktop desires and questions

On 18Feb2012 12:17, les <hlhowell@pacbell.net> wrote:
| I know that this has been discussed before, and I will go back and read
| more of that.
| The need to click to get to the computer is annoying at its very best
| and a real vocabulary expander in normal use. Every time I use one
| application and I want to access another I have to click

I find click to focus extremely annoying too.

[...]
| I want to know where the documents and or utilities are that will let
| me do something to improve my working environment and get back to
| efficiency. If you have useful information, please send it on.

It will, of course, cost you some time to change things around:-)

[...]
| With all that said, the basic needs as I see it are:

On X11 my preferred manager is FVWM. I'll list what it does (or can be
made to do) for me under the points below.

| 1. a way to get a list type menu instead of icons

Do you mean for applications or files or other things? You can put most
things in menus (all keyboard driven, too, btw, if you like)
autogenerated.

My FVWM menus, aside from things like window manager ops and the usual
"basic" stuff include:

- a menu for my named desktops (arbitrarily many, sensibly named when I want
them, keyboard driven - a keystroke to popup the menu, often a single
keystroke to choose and switch to the desktop).

- parallel menu to push app windows to a specific desktop (and not
follow them)

- menu for every open terminal window; mine all have informative named
courtesy of the shell prompts etc, so this is more useful than one
might think

- of course you can make menus for your usual apps; I tend to invoke
mine from the shell, but that is just me

| 2. a way to move the icons (if a list is not possible) or listing to
| different top level applications menus.
| 3. Get the applications menu on screen all the time as a pulldown.

There is a general bottum module in FVWM; you can do (optionally
autohiding) top (or bottom etc) grids of buttons. For a toolbar (eg like
the mac menu system) you make this short and one, a single row of
buttons. Attach menus or actions etc to the buttons.

| 4. ability to change icons by right clicking on the current icon and
| selecting a "change icon" menu which will open a file navigator.

Dunno. I don't use file navigators. I believe there are a bunch of them
available.

| 5. remove the "activities" switch and put the windows and applications
| buttons in its place with pull downs optional.
| 6. remove the "favorites" and just let us put the icons on the desktop
| if we so desire.

I don't know if you can do this with Gnome (guessing your desktop
manager is Gnome at present); as I said, I use FVWM instead.

| 7. do whatever else can be done to allow font selection, including
| fontsize as well as icon size for the desktop. This is an HID
| requirement anyway.

| 8. Stop the messing around with the open desktop in any way whatsoever.
| It is distracting and interferes with efficiency.

I don't put stuff on the desktop itself much. An (somewhat dated) outline of my
setup is here:

http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/fvwm/index.html

Switching window managers is a fair step, and you _will_ spend a lot of
time setting things up to your liking.

Cheers,
--
Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> DoD#743
http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/

Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? - C. Shelby
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:58 PM
Marko Vojinovic
 
Default Desktop desires and questions

On Saturday 18 February 2012 12:17:53 les wrote:
> I want more efficient use of my desktop.
[snip]
> Here is what I find in using the desktop as it exists in F16:
[snip]
> This is so ergonomically inefficient, so slowing that it adversely
> impacts my progress.

I sympathize. Gnome3 is anything but ergonomically efficient. :-) Although, some
people find it quite efficient and well adapted to their workflow. Each to their
own. ;-)

> Anyway, that is only the most irritating bit I have found so far, but it
> is worse. I don't see anyway to move the icons, change their sizes,
> move them to various menus, expand the menus, or do anything at all to
> change the current layout which is not at all conducive to my work. I
> put this off long enough to hope that these issues had been addressed,
> but they are not.

These issues will probably never get addressed. Gnome3 was deliberately
designed to look and function the way it looks and functions now, and I doubt
that Gnome designers and developers want to change it. If you file a bug with a
RFE, it will probably get closed as WONTFIX, NOTABUG or similar.

Don't ask me about the rationale of Gnome3 designers, and their design
decisions. I'd like to read more about that myself, for curiosity's sake, but
haven't found any good resources where the design of Gnome3 has been explained
seriously.

> I want to know where the documents and or utilities are that will let
> me do something to improve my working environment and get back to
> efficiency. If you have useful information, please send it on. I am
> sure I am not the only one who wants this information, nor should it be
> hand editing xml files, although if that is the only method, I will do
> it until I get too frustrated with Fedora.

Fedora != Gnome3, please do not mix them. If you are frustrated with Gnome3,
that doesn't mean that Fedora is bad. It just means that you have poorly
chosen your desktop environment.

> Please keep it civil and provide solutions for this desktop, don't say
> change desktops, don't start flaming, just help me and others get this
> thing to do what we need.

Change desktops. Gnome3 was not designed to do whay you need, and trying to
force it will not get you too far.

> With all that said, the basic needs as I see it are:

Based on what you described, I suggest that you switch to KDE. It has all the
stuff you were talking about, it is configurable beyond your imagination, and
works extremely well.

> 8. Stop the messing around with the open desktop in any way whatsoever.
> It is distracting and interferes with efficiency.

I'm afraid this is not going to happen --- desktops are evolving according to
latest fashion, most common usecases, form-factor redefinitions, etc.

The only thing I value in a DE is its configurability. I prefer to adapt the DE
to fit my workflow, rather than the other way around. In that sense, KDE is
light years ahead of Gnome. And based on what you were asking for above, I
think you would also find KDE much more satisfactory than Gnome.

HTH, :-)
Marko


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Old 02-19-2012, 06:33 PM
James Wilkinson
 
Default Desktop desires and questions

les wrote:
> The need to click to get to the computer is annoying at its very best
> and a real vocabulary expander in normal use. Every time I use one
> application and I want to access another I have to click
> "activities"
Or press the Windows key
> my windows shrink....
> and I have to move the mouse to
> "applications"
Or type the name of the program, or change the dock at the left of the
screen. You can just drag and drop programs into that list, and they’ll
stay in the order you put them. If you put your commonly-used programs
there, you’ll rarely have to use any other way of launching programs.

You should also examine the various gnome-shell-extension programs, and
especially the gnome-tweak-tool program, which allows you to change a
number of individual niggles.

> 7. do whatever else can be done to allow font selection, including
> fontsize as well as icon size for the desktop. This is an HID
> requirement anyway.

Well, the accessibility icon (the picture of a person) in the top right
of the screen gives you access to large fonts. More control can be got
through the gnome-tweak-tool program.

Hope this helps,

James.

--
E-mail: james@ | The "Power Switch" on ATX supplies, like traffic lights
aprilcottage.co.uk | in Paris, really is just a polite suggestion.
| -- Mike Andrews
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Old 02-19-2012, 07:35 PM
les
 
Default Desktop desires and questions

On Sun, 2012-02-19 at 19:33 +0000, James Wilkinson wrote:
> les wrote:
> > The need to click to get to the computer is annoying at its very best
> > and a real vocabulary expander in normal use. Every time I use one
> > application and I want to access another I have to click
> > "activities"
> Or press the Windows key
> > my windows shrink....
> > and I have to move the mouse to
> > "applications"
> Or type the name of the program, or change the dock at the left of the
> screen. You can just drag and drop programs into that list, and they’ll
> stay in the order you put them. If you put your commonly-used programs
> there, you’ll rarely have to use any other way of launching programs.
>
> You should also examine the various gnome-shell-extension programs, and
> especially the gnome-tweak-tool program, which allows you to change a
> number of individual niggles.
>
> > 7. do whatever else can be done to allow font selection, including
> > fontsize as well as icon size for the desktop. This is an HID
> > requirement anyway.
>
> Well, the accessibility icon (the picture of a person) in the top right
> of the screen gives you access to large fonts. More control can be got
> through the gnome-tweak-tool program.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> James.
>
> --
> E-mail: james@ | The "Power Switch" on ATX supplies, like traffic lights
> aprilcottage.co.uk | in Paris, really is just a polite suggestion.
> | -- Mike Andrews
I just found the gnome-tweak-tool. I now have gigantic fonts, a bit too
large, so I will have to play with it a bit. Unfortunately it doesn't
change the names associated with the icons sufficiently, which I really
need. I still need to research which setting affects that.

I know the favorites bar, I have about 20 applications I use routinely,
and several places I need to directly access, so I am unsure if the
"favorites bar" will expand to show that or will I just end up with yet
another scroll bar or other move/click to deal with.

Maybe KDE is the answer, but it seems like from what I see on the Web
that KDE is headed this route as well. So based on that I think getting
all of us to input reasons for our dislike along with suggestions and
maybe some day triage to consolidate the list, we might actually get
some thing useful out of it.

Thanks for the suggestion and I am working on the interface issues
myself. Maybe a switch that says "my custom DM" will be the outcome.

Regards,
Les H


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Old 02-19-2012, 08:53 PM
Cameron Simpson
 
Default Desktop desires and questions

On 19Feb2012 12:35, les <hlhowell@pacbell.net> wrote:
| On Sun, 2012-02-19 at 19:33 +0000, James Wilkinson wrote:
| > Well, the accessibility icon (the picture of a person) in the top right
| > of the screen gives you access to large fonts. More control can be got
| > through the gnome-tweak-tool program.

I would be curious to hear anecdotes about how far the gnome-tweak tool
lets you go.

[...]
| Maybe KDE is the answer, but it seems like from what I see on the Web
| that KDE is headed this route as well.

I think one stylistic difference between Gnome and KDE is that KDE seems
anecdotally more about letting the user tune everything. Gnome aims to
conceal that, and offer the user a nice (by their measures) interface
with fewer knobs to clutter it. Disclaimer: I speak from ignorance here;
my own preferences are a little picky and I don't use either - my last
use of them is some years old now.

| Thanks for the suggestion and I am working on the interface issues
| myself. Maybe a switch that says "my custom DM" will be the outcome.

Certainly the gnome-tweak tool should be easier to find, from what I've
seen on this list.

Cheers,
--
Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> DoD#743
http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/

Yes, some GNOME developers are self-appointed control freak antifeature nazis
who've stripped functionality in pursuit of some theoretical "non geek" user
who does not exist, thereby crippling their software.
And probably some KDE developers are feature sluts who never saw a checkbox
they didn't love, exposing users to all kinds of broken features.
- Nat Friedman in the Gnome usability mlist, 13dec2005
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