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Old 02-09-2012, 08:57 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16 -- focus on "new/moved filesystems"

Am 09.02.2012 20:50, schrieb Joe Zeff:
> On 02/09/2012 11:04 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> you know the difference between MOVE and COPY?
>> /usrmove != /usrcopy
>
> Of course I do. However, I've learned better than to assume that things like this are named the way you think they
> are. Just because it's called usrmove doesn't mean that it couldn't have been implemented as a copy, although for
> the life of me, I can't see why. But then, I've seen large numbers of decisions made recently that make no sense
> to me.

so tame one seocond and imagine how it should work
copy all this files and maintain them twice with yum

sorry, but this makes no sense at all

>> sorry, even if i see no single sense in this adventure but
>> believing the will somehting be copied and after that maintained
>> with the package managment is a little naive even if obe
>> does not know the meaning of the word "move"
>
> Is there a reason that you feel compelled to add gratuitous insults to as many of your posts as possible? If so,
> you might spend a moment contemplating the fact that I waste neither time nor bandwith nitpicking your spelling,
> because English is clearly not your first language.

enlish needs not to be me first language to understand how a OS works



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Old 02-09-2012, 09:09 PM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16 -- focus on "new/moved filesystems"

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:53:13 -0800
Joe Zeff <joe@zeff.us> wrote:

> On 02/09/2012 10:34 AM, Frank Murphy wrote:
> > On 09/02/12 18:30, Joe Zeff wrote:
> >
> > One question, though: will there be a way to
> >> recover the disk space used by the now-redundant directories?
> >
> > Just 4 symlinks are left?
> >
>
> It wasn't clear to me if everything in the old directories was
> deleted or not before being replaced with the symlinks. After all,
> one way to do it would be to move /bin to /oldbin before creating the
> link, in case something doesn't get copied over correctly. If so,
> either the copy needs to be removed at the end of the process or
> there should be a script to do the cleanup if/when you decide that
> the backup isn't needed any longer.

The dracut conversion script should do this:

"Any files with conflicting names, which the conversion could not
resolve, will be backed up to files named *.usrmove~ residing
in /usr/lib, /usr/lib64, /usr/bin and /usr/sbin."

So, the /lib, /lib64, /bin, /sbin dirs and their contents are
completely replaced by the symlinks.

kevin
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:12 PM
David
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16 -- focus on "new/moved filesystems"

On 2/9/2012 1:30 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 02/09/2012 10:00 AM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
>> David:
>>
>> Thanks for the link, I was unaware of this change for F17.
>
> Yes indeed. When I read what was going to be done, my first thought
> was, "Dear Ghod in Heaven, *why?*" By the time I reached the bottom of
> the page it all made sense. One question, though: will there be a way
> to recover the disk space used by the now-redundant directories? I know
> that with modern disks the amount lost is probably trivial, but I go
> back to the days when a 40MB drive was *huge,* and I still don't like
> wasting space for no good reason. Besides, it's untidy.

I read about this and, to me, it really makes good sense. I agree with
this. But...

As I understand it... and I am certainly *not* a Linux genius... this
is currently not automatic with a DVD or 'online' update from 'older
Fedora' to Fedora 17. Work-in-progress stuff. It does not work.
Following the instructions on the page, me, updated Fedora 16 twice and
succeeded once. Attempting to update an existing Rawhide, twice, failed
twice. And these were 'plain' installs. Certainly nothing exotic.

As I said I do not consider myself a 'Linux genus' but I can read,
comprehend, and follow directions. I *do not* expect Joe/Jane Average
User to be able to follow those instructions. Would you? Nor would I
expect (s)he to.

This has to *just work*, seamlessly and painlessly, out-of-the-box or
the b*tching will start on release day.

IMHO
--

David

"May your road lead you to warm sands."
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Old 02-10-2012, 12:51 AM
Paul Allen Newell
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16 -- focus on "new/moved filesystems"

On 2/9/2012 2:12 PM, David wrote:

On 2/9/2012 1:30 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 02/09/2012 10:00 AM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:

David:

Thanks for the link, I was unaware of this change for F17.

Yes indeed. When I read what was going to be done, my first thought
was, "Dear Ghod in Heaven, *why?*" By the time I reached the bottom of
the page it all made sense. One question, though: will there be a way
to recover the disk space used by the now-redundant directories? I know
that with modern disks the amount lost is probably trivial, but I go
back to the days when a 40MB drive was *huge,* and I still don't like
wasting space for no good reason. Besides, it's untidy.

I read about this and, to me, it really makes good sense. I agree with
this. But...

As I understand it... and I am certainly *not* a Linux genius... this
is currently not automatic with a DVD or 'online' update from 'older
Fedora' to Fedora 17. Work-in-progress stuff. It does not work.
Following the instructions on the page, me, updated Fedora 16 twice and
succeeded once. Attempting to update an existing Rawhide, twice, failed
twice. And these were 'plain' installs. Certainly nothing exotic.

As I said I do not consider myself a 'Linux genus' but I can read,
comprehend, and follow directions. I *do not* expect Joe/Jane Average
User to be able to follow those instructions. Would you? Nor would I
expect (s)he to.

This has to *just work*, seamlessly and painlessly, out-of-the-box or
the b*tching will start on release day.

IMHO


David (and to everyone else who has posted):

I read it when you first sent the link and re-read awhile later to make
sure I understood. Also read all the posts on this topic.


It makes sense and, if I take the statement that Solaris is already
doing it, then I feel that its gotten at least one successful test
drive. I am less of a Linux genius than probably everyone who has
responded, but for whatever reason my gut says that clean installs when
F17 is released will probably work (no bets on Rawhide as that is where
the problems are supposed to be discovered --- and notice I use the word
"probably" and not "definitely" (smile)). I am less positive about
upgrades from prior Fedoras. But, that being said, I must confess that I
never do an upgrade, always a fresh install.


Paul
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Old 02-10-2012, 01:08 AM
Reindl Harald
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16 -- focus on "new/moved filesystems"

Am 10.02.2012 02:51, schrieb Paul Allen Newell:
> but for whatever reason my gut says that clean installs when F17 is released
> will probably work (no bets on Rawhide as that is where the problems are
> supposed to be discovered --- and notice I use the word "probably" and not
> "definitely" (smile)). I am less positive about upgrades from prior Fedoras.
> But, that being said, I must confess that I never do an upgrade, always a fresh
> install.

but there are people who are working with their machines and do
not twice a year reinstall like windows - for me it takes TWO DAYS
until a fresh installed machine has exactly the state i like/need
to have before start working

this is for my two workstations

here are running 20 server (Vmware guests) in production since
2008 (Fedora 9) currently on F15 and i have never made
a fresh install of a linux system in my whole life for
updates because it is not windows and should not get windows

even i do not a fresh install for new pyhsical machines
my machine at home was bought two months after the workstation
in the office, both with 4x2 TB disks with RAID1 for /boot
and two RAID10 for / and /data and the seocnd one was a
simple dd-over-ssh-clone and change ip-addresses

this are the things where linux is really strong and
damage yum-upgrades in any way would be a hughe step
backwards to windows-gameloaders

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Old 02-10-2012, 01:54 AM
Paul Allen Newell
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16 -- focus on "new/moved filesystems"

On 2/9/2012 6:08 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:


Am 10.02.2012 02:51, schrieb Paul Allen Newell:

but for whatever reason my gut says that clean installs when F17 is released
will probably work (no bets on Rawhide as that is where the problems are
supposed to be discovered --- and notice I use the word "probably" and not
"definitely" (smile)). I am less positive about upgrades from prior Fedoras.
But, that being said, I must confess that I never do an upgrade, always a fresh
install.

but there are people who are working with their machines and do
not twice a year reinstall like windows - for me it takes TWO DAYS
until a fresh installed machine has exactly the state i like/need
to have before start working



Please note that I never advised that anyone else should do a fresh
install rather than an upgrade. I was only qualifying my opinion about
"new/moved filesystems" in F17. Plus I don't think Windows has anything
to do with the topic or what I said ... the closest one can get in the
way of comparisons is "fresh install" versus "upgrade" for dealing with
future Fedora changes.

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Old 02-10-2012, 02:02 AM
Reindl Harald
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16 -- focus on "new/moved filesystems"

Am 10.02.2012 03:54, schrieb Paul Allen Newell:
> On 2/9/2012 6:08 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>
>> Am 10.02.2012 02:51, schrieb Paul Allen Newell:
>>> but for whatever reason my gut says that clean installs when F17 is released
>>> will probably work (no bets on Rawhide as that is where the problems are
>>> supposed to be discovered --- and notice I use the word "probably" and not
>>> "definitely" (smile)). I am less positive about upgrades from prior Fedoras.
>>> But, that being said, I must confess that I never do an upgrade, always a fresh
>>> install.
>> but there are people who are working with their machines and do
>> not twice a year reinstall like windows - for me it takes TWO DAYS
>> until a fresh installed machine has exactly the state i like/need
>> to have before start working
>>
>
> Please note that I never advised that anyone else should do a fresh install rather than an upgrade. I was only
> qualifying my opinion about "new/moved filesystems" in F17. Plus I don't think Windows has anything to do with the
> topic or what I said ... the closest one can get in the way of comparisons is "fresh install" versus "upgrade" for
> dealing with future Fedora changes.

sorry, but permanently reinstall the OS is a windows-thing
and especially unnaceptable if all 6 months a new version
is available and you have to maintain 2, 5, 10, 20 machines

a scripted dist-upgrade for 20 servers with yum takes around
two hours (proveable by logs) inlcuding download from local
repo-cache

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Old 02-10-2012, 02:13 AM
Paul Allen Newell
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16 -- focus on "new/moved filesystems"

On 2/9/2012 7:02 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:


Am 10.02.2012 03:54, schrieb Paul Allen Newell:

On 2/9/2012 6:08 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:

Am 10.02.2012 02:51, schrieb Paul Allen Newell:

but for whatever reason my gut says that clean installs when F17 is released
will probably work (no bets on Rawhide as that is where the problems are
supposed to be discovered --- and notice I use the word "probably" and not
"definitely" (smile)). I am less positive about upgrades from prior Fedoras.
But, that being said, I must confess that I never do an upgrade, always a fresh
install.

but there are people who are working with their machines and do
not twice a year reinstall like windows - for me it takes TWO DAYS
until a fresh installed machine has exactly the state i like/need
to have before start working


Please note that I never advised that anyone else should do a fresh install rather than an upgrade. I was only
qualifying my opinion about "new/moved filesystems" in F17. Plus I don't think Windows has anything to do with the
topic or what I said ... the closest one can get in the way of comparisons is "fresh install" versus "upgrade" for
dealing with future Fedora changes.

sorry, but permanently reinstall the OS is a windows-thing
and especially unnaceptable if all 6 months a new version
is available and you have to maintain 2, 5, 10, 20 machines

a scripted dist-upgrade for 20 servers with yum takes around
two hours (proveable by logs) inlcuding download from local
repo-cache



Reindl:

Okay, I see your reasoning in using "windows-thing" comparison. I don't
necessarily agree with it, but I can understand how it fits for what you
are trying to say.


And clearly your situation is one that makes fresh installs more
difficult. It sounds like you have crafted a system for handling new
releases which works best for you.


I've got three machines, I only need one at a time, so I can take the
hit of a fresh install as I move to a new release. Different workflow
which makes fresh installs a better option for me (and I am only saying
"for me")


Paul

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Old 02-10-2012, 03:31 AM
David
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16 -- focus on "new/moved filesystems"

On 2/9/2012 8:51 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> On 2/9/2012 2:12 PM, David wrote:
>> On 2/9/2012 1:30 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
>>> On 02/09/2012 10:00 AM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
>>>> David:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the link, I was unaware of this change for F17.
>>> Yes indeed. When I read what was going to be done, my first thought
>>> was, "Dear Ghod in Heaven, *why?*" By the time I reached the bottom of
>>> the page it all made sense. One question, though: will there be a way
>>> to recover the disk space used by the now-redundant directories? I know
>>> that with modern disks the amount lost is probably trivial, but I go
>>> back to the days when a 40MB drive was *huge,* and I still don't like
>>> wasting space for no good reason. Besides, it's untidy.
>> I read about this and, to me, it really makes good sense. I agree with
>> this. But...
>>
>> As I understand it... and I am certainly *not* a Linux genius... this
>> is currently not automatic with a DVD or 'online' update from 'older
>> Fedora' to Fedora 17. Work-in-progress stuff. It does not work.
>> Following the instructions on the page, me, updated Fedora 16 twice and
>> succeeded once. Attempting to update an existing Rawhide, twice, failed
>> twice. And these were 'plain' installs. Certainly nothing exotic.
>>
>> As I said I do not consider myself a 'Linux genus' but I can read,
>> comprehend, and follow directions. I *do not* expect Joe/Jane Average
>> User to be able to follow those instructions. Would you? Nor would I
>> expect (s)he to.
>>
>> This has to *just work*, seamlessly and painlessly, out-of-the-box or
>> the b*tching will start on release day.
>>
>> IMHO
>
> David (and to everyone else who has posted):
>
> I read it when you first sent the link and re-read awhile later to make
> sure I understood. Also read all the posts on this topic.
>
> It makes sense and, if I take the statement that Solaris is already
> doing it, then I feel that its gotten at least one successful test
> drive. I am less of a Linux genius than probably everyone who has
> responded, but for whatever reason my gut says that clean installs when
> F17 is released will probably work (no bets on Rawhide as that is where
> the problems are supposed to be discovered --- and notice I use the word
> "probably" and not "definitely" (smile)). I am less positive about
> upgrades from prior Fedoras. But, that being said, I must confess that I
> never do an upgrade, always a fresh install.


Paul,

I have yet to see a fresh install of Rawhide or Fedora 17. The current
nightly Rawhide build ISOs will not install at all, for me, for some
reason, and there are no as of yet ISOs available of Fedora 17 that I
know of.

I would expect the Fedora 17 install, with this /usrmove in it, would
work. I have yet, as I wrote, to have great success with the conversion
phase. 25%, one success out of four attempts, is not good.

I would not expect a 'new install' user to even notice. I would,
however, expect to see the 'update installers' have problems at this
time. At least with what is not working today. And fedora 17 is
scheduled for release on May 5, 2012. Hopefully they fix it by then

--

David

"May your road lead you to warm sands."
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:51 AM
Paul Allen Newell
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16 -- focus on "new/moved filesystems"

On 2/9/2012 8:31 PM, David wrote:

Paul,

I have yet to see a fresh install of Rawhide or Fedora 17. The current
nightly Rawhide build ISOs will not install at all, for me, for some
reason, and there are no as of yet ISOs available of Fedora 17 that I
know of.

I would expect the Fedora 17 install, with this /usrmove in it, would
work. I have yet, as I wrote, to have great success with the conversion
phase. 25%, one success out of four attempts, is not good.

I would not expect a 'new install' user to even notice. I would,
however, expect to see the 'update installers' have problems at this
time. At least with what is not working today. And fedora 17 is
scheduled for release on May 5, 2012. Hopefully they fix it by then



David:

I am very much hoping they fix it and well before May 5th. Getting it
working for "update installations" is the robust stress test of the
whole implementation.


Rawhide is too bleeding edge for me. But I am glad to be aware of this
as I certainly will be checking for comments on or after May 5th when I
consider whether I move to F17 or wait for F18. I skipped F15 for
similar reasons ... I just didn't like what I was seeing posted as folks
discovered what was there in the release version.


Paul

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