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Old 04-05-2008, 03:51 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 18:58 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 14:15 -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
> Woz was/is a Saint. I wish he'd come out on the Linux side. Ric
> ----
> yeah...I have no idea what happened to my 'red' book either (I never saw
> the blue book).
>
> As for Woz...he's probably still holding too much Apple stock to
> seriously consider anything public about Linux but you know he's fooled
> with it. What the hey...he's busy playing hide the salami with you know
> who.

If it wasn't for the Woz, you-know-who would be barefoot at the beach
sipping wine-coolers paid for by rich old dames.

The original Apple][ was a dream of a machine, open sourced in the red
(integer basic source code list and circuits specs) and blue book (I
think that had the Floating Point source-code listing and docs) as well
as complete logical diagrams of the circuitry. All right there and
shipped with every machine. Then Jobs stuck his fingers in, started
close-sourcing everything, starting with the Apple][+ and made it into
an appliance. Just wait, the iToaster, iDustBuster and the iFormansGrill
will be his next offerings. His followers will cheer madly. In case you
can't tell, I really despise the man. If Woz were to run the joint, I'd
buy one in a heartbeat. <chuckles> Ric

--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================

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Old 04-05-2008, 04:00 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 19:12 -0700, Rick Stevens wrote:
> Ric Moore wrote:
> > cp/m had all kinda sort and list commands. I'm just not sure which would
> > have been better, to be under the evil domination of Digital or
> > Microsoft. <grins> cp/m ][ was pretty nice, though. It did pretty much
> > whatever I wanted it to do. Ric
>
> Hey, be nice! First off, remember Gary Kildall's company was Digital
> Research, Inc.--NOT Digital Equipment Corp. (at the time chaired by
> Ken Olson).
>
> I worked for DRI on CP/M and MP/M. There were some nomenclature and UI
> similarities between DEC's RT-11 or RSTS and CP/M, but they were NOT the
> same company--not by a long shot. They were even on different coasts!
>
> IBM went with Microsoft because they arrived for a meeting with Gary,
> but he was out flying his airplane and missed it. IBM got ticked off
> and called Microsoft. We've never been sure if IBM was a day early
> (as Gary always claimed) or Gary screwed up his calendar. Either one is
> as likely as the other (IBM can be petulant and Gary could be very
> scatterbrained at times).

I bought just about every Televideo model made from Gov. Surplus. God, I
forget the monster they built that served the 8 bit machines running
cp/m and the 16 bit machines running cp/m86, but it ran MP/M and could
handle either client. Pretty slick!! Televideo, when the old man ran the
company made some very nice handling machines. Excellent keyboards. Nice
nice stuff! I had a collection of a pile of cp/m machines, Altos,
Televideo, Kaypro, an original ozzie, 3 Imsai machines, plus quite a few
I had never heard of before. Got 'em for $10 apiece at Gov Surplus, just
to play with. Remember Irv Hoff?? I talked to him on the phone a few
weeks before he died of cancer. His contributions to the modem world
were priceless. Ric

--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================

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Old 04-05-2008, 04:11 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 22:52 -0700, Richard England wrote:

> Arthur Godfrey and Lipton's Tea. My god I haven't thought of him for AGES!

Dave Garroway and Mister Muggs? <grins> Ric

--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================

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Old 04-05-2008, 06:18 AM
Gene Heskett
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Friday 04 April 2008, Ric Moore wrote:
>On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 18:58 -0700, Craig White wrote:
>> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 14:15 -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
>> Woz was/is a Saint. I wish he'd come out on the Linux side. Ric
>> ----
>> yeah...I have no idea what happened to my 'red' book either (I never saw
>> the blue book).
>>
>> As for Woz...he's probably still holding too much Apple stock to
>> seriously consider anything public about Linux but you know he's fooled
>> with it. What the hey...he's busy playing hide the salami with you know
>> who.
>
>If it wasn't for the Woz, you-know-who would be barefoot at the beach
>sipping wine-coolers paid for by rich old dames.
>
>The original Apple][ was a dream of a machine, open sourced in the red
>(integer basic source code list and circuits specs) and blue book (I
>think that had the Floating Point source-code listing and docs) as well
>as complete logical diagrams of the circuitry. All right there and
>shipped with every machine. Then Jobs stuck his fingers in, started
>close-sourcing everything, starting with the Apple][+ and made it into
>an appliance. Just wait, the iToaster, iDustBuster and the iFormansGrill
>will be his next offerings. His followers will cheer madly. In case you
>can't tell, I really despise the man. If Woz were to run the joint, I'd
>buy one in a heartbeat. <chuckles> Ric
>
Two of us, Ric. Now I wouldn't touch them with a 40 foot pole.

--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
A journey of a thousand miles starts under one's feet.
-- Lao Tsu

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Old 04-06-2008, 05:41 PM
Les
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 00:00 -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 19:12 -0700, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > Ric Moore wrote:
> > > cp/m had all kinda sort and list commands. I'm just not sure which would
> > > have been better, to be under the evil domination of Digital or
> > > Microsoft. <grins> cp/m ][ was pretty nice, though. It did pretty much
> > > whatever I wanted it to do. Ric
> >
> > Hey, be nice! First off, remember Gary Kildall's company was Digital
> > Research, Inc.--NOT Digital Equipment Corp. (at the time chaired by
> > Ken Olson).
> >
> > I worked for DRI on CP/M and MP/M. There were some nomenclature and UI
> > similarities between DEC's RT-11 or RSTS and CP/M, but they were NOT the
> > same company--not by a long shot. They were even on different coasts!
> >
> > IBM went with Microsoft because they arrived for a meeting with Gary,
> > but he was out flying his airplane and missed it. IBM got ticked off
> > and called Microsoft. We've never been sure if IBM was a day early
> > (as Gary always claimed) or Gary screwed up his calendar. Either one is
> > as likely as the other (IBM can be petulant and Gary could be very
> > scatterbrained at times).
>
> I bought just about every Televideo model made from Gov. Surplus. God, I
> forget the monster they built that served the 8 bit machines running
> cp/m and the 16 bit machines running cp/m86, but it ran MP/M and could
> handle either client. Pretty slick!! Televideo, when the old man ran the
> company made some very nice handling machines. Excellent keyboards. Nice
> nice stuff! I had a collection of a pile of cp/m machines, Altos,
> Televideo, Kaypro, an original ozzie, 3 Imsai machines, plus quite a few
> I had never heard of before. Got 'em for $10 apiece at Gov Surplus, just
> to play with. Remember Irv Hoff?? I talked to him on the phone a few
> weeks before he died of cancer. His contributions to the modem world
> were priceless. Ric
>
I was overseas from 1972 to 1977, and did much of my early programming
and programming study then, using Fortran and paying for time on a
company timeshare.

I never met any of the folks I was reading about, and I was months
behind the curve, I think, (technical communications were not what they
are today), but I learned so very very much. I read every book I could
afford to buy, joined McGraw-Hill's book club and bought one or two
books nearly every month. It was tough to do that on a sailors salary
with a family to support, and studying took a lot of the little free
time I had (3 or 4 section duty, taking classes, standing watches 3 out
of 4 weekends or 2 out of three weekends), but I did get a lot done... I
earned an ASEE at University of Guam (it's part of the California system
of colleges), and got a First Class Radio Operators License, and passed
the Navy Chief ET's exam (not enough points to advance then). I did the
finals and the exams all in one week. It was punishing, but I had
operations coming up and I couldn't delay. I worked on the side some as
well. I remember getting about 3 or 4 hours of sleep a day. And I
continued that during my next shore tour as I earned an AA at Skagit
Valley Community college. Didn't realize I didn't need the AA to go on
in school. Wasn't smart enough to ask.

I learned, I wrote software to flash lights, make noises, even to say
the hex digits in place of a readout on one of my early boards. That
way I could follow the listing as it read them back to me. I figured
out how to make a comparator and wrote a resyncing program to allow
storing data on audio cassettes at 8K baud because I was tired of
waiting for the 300 baud modem. I never experienced a drop out with my
algorithm. But I didn't patent it, I thought it was too obvious. I
designed a SAR algorithm and used the system to sample voice at about a
10K rate. I was experimenting with voice input. I had a crazy idea of
listing programs by voice onto cassette tape and then being able to edit
them and reload them to run from assembly or some other language, but
without binary type storage, so they would always be available in source
form. Sounds crazy now, but at the time, it seemed like a good idea to
me.

I really wanted to be able to meet and talk to some of the other early
experimenters, but I was nearly half a world away. At that time I felt
so isolated from the world of bits and bytes that even now I can feel
it.

I hope some of the young people reading this list are inspired by our
words and our deeds to pursue ever greater goals. Maybe visit the
planets or even the stars. We are not meant to be bound, not to our
limitations, nor even to the earth. We, all people are meant to
explore, to learn, to develop, and to expand.

Regards,
Les H

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Old 04-06-2008, 11:36 PM
Da Rock
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 10:41 -0700, Les wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 00:00 -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
> > On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 19:12 -0700, Rick Stevens wrote:
> > > Ric Moore wrote:
> > > > cp/m had all kinda sort and list commands. I'm just not sure which would
> > > > have been better, to be under the evil domination of Digital or
> > > > Microsoft. <grins> cp/m ][ was pretty nice, though. It did pretty much
> > > > whatever I wanted it to do. Ric
> > >
> > > Hey, be nice! First off, remember Gary Kildall's company was Digital
> > > Research, Inc.--NOT Digital Equipment Corp. (at the time chaired by
> > > Ken Olson).
> > >
> > > I worked for DRI on CP/M and MP/M. There were some nomenclature and UI
> > > similarities between DEC's RT-11 or RSTS and CP/M, but they were NOT the
> > > same company--not by a long shot. They were even on different coasts!
> > >
> > > IBM went with Microsoft because they arrived for a meeting with Gary,
> > > but he was out flying his airplane and missed it. IBM got ticked off
> > > and called Microsoft. We've never been sure if IBM was a day early
> > > (as Gary always claimed) or Gary screwed up his calendar. Either one is
> > > as likely as the other (IBM can be petulant and Gary could be very
> > > scatterbrained at times).
> >
> > I bought just about every Televideo model made from Gov. Surplus. God, I
> > forget the monster they built that served the 8 bit machines running
> > cp/m and the 16 bit machines running cp/m86, but it ran MP/M and could
> > handle either client. Pretty slick!! Televideo, when the old man ran the
> > company made some very nice handling machines. Excellent keyboards. Nice
> > nice stuff! I had a collection of a pile of cp/m machines, Altos,
> > Televideo, Kaypro, an original ozzie, 3 Imsai machines, plus quite a few
> > I had never heard of before. Got 'em for $10 apiece at Gov Surplus, just
> > to play with. Remember Irv Hoff?? I talked to him on the phone a few
> > weeks before he died of cancer. His contributions to the modem world
> > were priceless. Ric
> >
> I was overseas from 1972 to 1977, and did much of my early programming
> and programming study then, using Fortran and paying for time on a
> company timeshare.
>
> I never met any of the folks I was reading about, and I was months
> behind the curve, I think, (technical communications were not what they
> are today), but I learned so very very much. I read every book I could
> afford to buy, joined McGraw-Hill's book club and bought one or two
> books nearly every month. It was tough to do that on a sailors salary
> with a family to support, and studying took a lot of the little free
> time I had (3 or 4 section duty, taking classes, standing watches 3 out
> of 4 weekends or 2 out of three weekends), but I did get a lot done... I
> earned an ASEE at University of Guam (it's part of the California system
> of colleges), and got a First Class Radio Operators License, and passed
> the Navy Chief ET's exam (not enough points to advance then). I did the
> finals and the exams all in one week. It was punishing, but I had
> operations coming up and I couldn't delay. I worked on the side some as
> well. I remember getting about 3 or 4 hours of sleep a day. And I
> continued that during my next shore tour as I earned an AA at Skagit
> Valley Community college. Didn't realize I didn't need the AA to go on
> in school. Wasn't smart enough to ask.
>
> I learned, I wrote software to flash lights, make noises, even to say
> the hex digits in place of a readout on one of my early boards. That
> way I could follow the listing as it read them back to me. I figured
> out how to make a comparator and wrote a resyncing program to allow
> storing data on audio cassettes at 8K baud because I was tired of
> waiting for the 300 baud modem. I never experienced a drop out with my
> algorithm. But I didn't patent it, I thought it was too obvious. I
> designed a SAR algorithm and used the system to sample voice at about a
> 10K rate. I was experimenting with voice input. I had a crazy idea of
> listing programs by voice onto cassette tape and then being able to edit
> them and reload them to run from assembly or some other language, but
> without binary type storage, so they would always be available in source
> form. Sounds crazy now, but at the time, it seemed like a good idea to
> me.
>
> I really wanted to be able to meet and talk to some of the other early
> experimenters, but I was nearly half a world away. At that time I felt
> so isolated from the world of bits and bytes that even now I can feel
> it.
>
> I hope some of the young people reading this list are inspired by our
> words and our deeds to pursue ever greater goals. Maybe visit the
> planets or even the stars. We are not meant to be bound, not to our
> limitations, nor even to the earth. We, all people are meant to
> explore, to learn, to develop, and to expand.
>
> Regards,
> Les H
>

Indeed. We were put on this earth to terraform it- WE are the guardians,
the park rangers, whatever. WE can make it what we want it to be. Never
mind environmental issues, if we want something to remain to enjoy then
we need to do something to keep it that way. Change is inevitable, and
maybe future generations will do as they will with the same area-
something different even.

Until we can do this here, then there wouldn't be much point going
somewhere else to be stranded without a clue. But yes, this is what the
universe is there for- to be explored, tamed even for our use.

As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that they're not put to
full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we have games
that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and YET we still use
them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes, they can be
used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they could be doing
the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our machines dumb,
and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1 with all the
shit they put in the software.

Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our collective wasted
computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one put to
dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We dreamed of geek houses
in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't got there- and not
due to the lack of technology...

Anyway, thats my 2c. I do applaud your diligence Les- it was inspiring.

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Old 04-07-2008, 02:21 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 08:45 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> Ric Moore wrote:
> > On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 22:52 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Arthur Godfrey and Lipton's Tea. My god I haven't thought of him for AGES!
> >>
> >
> > Dave Garroway and Mister Muggs? <grins> Ric
> >
> >
> I'll see your Garroway and raise you a "Winky-dink".
Would you believe, Winky-Dink is on the Dish Network? I tried to view
it, but we don't subscribe to that package. Someone just shoot me. I'll
see your raise and raise you a Captain Midnight. Let's see what you're
playing with! <cackles> Ric

--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================

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Old 04-07-2008, 03:49 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 20:42 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> Ric Moore wrote:
> > On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 08:45 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> >
> >> Ric Moore wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 22:52 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Arthur Godfrey and Lipton's Tea. My god I haven't thought of him for AGES!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Dave Garroway and Mister Muggs? <grins> Ric
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> I'll see your Garroway and raise you a "Winky-dink".
> >>
> > Would you believe, Winky-Dink is on the Dish Network? I tried to view
> > it, but we don't subscribe to that package. Someone just shoot me. I'll
> > see your raise and raise you a Captain Midnight. Let's see what you're
> > playing with! <cackles> Ric
> >
> >
> How about a Captain Video? I'd through in a Howdy Doody but everone has
> one of those!
Damn, looks like Richard has a full-house. I just got a pair of treys.
That's the story of my life.

<Marvin the Paranoid Android like groan> Ric

--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================

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Old 04-07-2008, 03:53 AM
Tim
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:36 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
> As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that they're not put to
> full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we have games
> that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and YET we still use
> them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes, they can be
> used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they could be doing
> the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our machines dumb,
> and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1 with all the
> shit they put in the software.
>
> Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our collective wasted
> computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one put to
> dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We dreamed of geek houses
> in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't got there- and not
> due to the lack of technology...

I tend to sway the other direction. We're all too quick at throwing
computing into areas where it doesn't really belong. e.g. Schools seem
to think that putting a computer somewhere is the answer, never mind
that personal teaching would be more appropriate. School's as much an
exercise in learning social skills and doing what you're supposed to be
doing, as it is in learning how to do math, etc. And what do we do with
the students sorely lacking in social skills? Put them on a computer,
often flying solo...

Then there's the home situation. In days gone past, the most difficult
technical thing anyone had to do at home was get the television to show
a decent picture. Now we do have computers in media centres that make
you jump through hoops to try and connect two devices together in a way
that works. Digital video that doesn't work across different things
because of imcompatible techniques (I hesitate to refer to them as
"standards"). Recorders that forever blink 12:00 at you. Digital
receivers that stutter and repeat where analogue receivers give near
perfect results. Computerised washing machines that aren't any better
than the old ones, even worse if you want to do something simple like
repeat one cycle because something went wrong. And that Pile of Crap
running Windows that spews viruses and spam around the world.

Our leisure time has gone from enjoying the company of friends, reading
a book, listening to music, watching a film, to spending lots of time
and money maintaining a plethora of technology at home, or just putting
up with it not working right.

--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.

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Old 04-07-2008, 04:29 AM
Da Rock
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 13:23 +0930, Tim wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:36 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
> > As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that they're not put to
> > full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we have games
> > that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and YET we still use
> > them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes, they can be
> > used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they could be doing
> > the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our machines dumb,
> > and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1 with all the
> > shit they put in the software.
> >
> > Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our collective wasted
> > computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one put to
> > dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We dreamed of geek houses
> > in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't got there- and not
> > due to the lack of technology...
>
> I tend to sway the other direction. We're all too quick at throwing
> computing into areas where it doesn't really belong. e.g. Schools seem
> to think that putting a computer somewhere is the answer, never mind
> that personal teaching would be more appropriate. School's as much an
> exercise in learning social skills and doing what you're supposed to be
> doing, as it is in learning how to do math, etc. And what do we do with
> the students sorely lacking in social skills? Put them on a computer,
> often flying solo...
>
> Then there's the home situation. In days gone past, the most difficult
> technical thing anyone had to do at home was get the television to show
> a decent picture. Now we do have computers in media centres that make
> you jump through hoops to try and connect two devices together in a way
> that works. Digital video that doesn't work across different things
> because of imcompatible techniques (I hesitate to refer to them as
> "standards"). Recorders that forever blink 12:00 at you. Digital
> receivers that stutter and repeat where analogue receivers give near
> perfect results. Computerised washing machines that aren't any better
> than the old ones, even worse if you want to do something simple like
> repeat one cycle because something went wrong. And that Pile of Crap
> running Windows that spews viruses and spam around the world.
>
> Our leisure time has gone from enjoying the company of friends, reading
> a book, listening to music, watching a film, to spending lots of time
> and money maintaining a plethora of technology at home, or just putting
> up with it not working right.

So you'd throw the baby out with the bathwater here?

The concept is right, and would yield a plethora of opportunities- but
it MUST BE DONE RIGHT. You're damned right about the M$ shitbox spewing
out crap. This thread and punch cards thread, plus the majority of the
audience on this list (it seems) come from an era where the job was done
right and it Just Works (TM) (I hope I haven't offended the coiner). M$
comes along and cheapifies it all, but it does the job in opening the
public to computing. What should have happened was that the training
wheels should have come off- but instead users have hung on to them and
think they're clever getting them to do things like video conferencing.
They should have moved on to something that truely is customizable such
any *nix variation. I'd even allow them Ubuntu if it got them off the
damn drug produced by M$.

And there is addiction through and through.

Computers could be put to use as they were intended to- to make life
easier- but the majority of corporations are unwilling to throw money at
something to do the whole job when they could get away with doing a half
assed job instead. Plus they make money because the unit craps out and
the consumer has to buy another one.

I had an old man come into my shop one day with the ccd piece of a
scanner (at which point I'm almost physically slapping my head!) and
requesting a spare part for it. I then sympathetically explained that
he'd need a special jig to replace it anyway so there's no spare part,
and of course that got him started on corporate wastefulness and so on
for over half an hour in a lecture to me. I agreed totally, but I
couldn't help him then. This is the half assed job we're talking about-
maybe not with scanners, but the majority of products (especially the
ones you mentioned- washers and dryers, HiFi equipment, etc).

The fact of the matter is: any job worth doing is worth doing properly.
Make it work. For those of you who think the majority of work has been
done and now its only tweaking: its not over. There's miles to be done,
to get that slogan back into gear, make it Just Work (TM).

As for the social aspect, consider this: we're arguing this point across
several continents! If it weren't for computers, we couldn't be doing
this. There are dangers, but this is as much of a social skill as
learning not to talk to strangers. So everyone can learn something. More
social activities can occur than ever before across a wide area. Forget
just the local dance hall social scene- try a GLOBAL dance hall.

And the choice is there to do what you want- or you can put it all aside
and get outdoors or whatever.

In this point Tim, I agree with your view of the crap, but I'd ask that
you consider the wider ramifications of what life would be like IF
computers were put to good use, and done so properly. In former
civilizations we had slaves (I'm not saying this is a good thing either-
I abhor the way they were treated) to make life easier, now we need to
use technology to achieve the same lifestyle- FOR ALL PEOPLE, not an
elite few. We can achieve something never achievable before...

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