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Old 02-08-2012, 05:27 PM
"n2xssvv.g02gfr12930"
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16

Currently I'm using Fedora 14, but after upgrading my PC I decided to
try and install Fedora 16 from the KDE spin, (no problem). The problem
arises when trying to do yum updates, I get multiple errors, some of
which stop Fedora 16 from shutting down. Sadly, based on this
experience, and previous experience trying to upgrade to Fedora 15 I'm
considering looking into another Linux distribution. My patience with
these problems, (2+ days already), is rapidly wearing thin! Piecemeal
updating by trial and error makes for a less than friendly release!

Looks like I may have to wait for Fedora 17 for a yum friendly release.
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:37 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16

Am 08.02.2012 19:27, schrieb n2xssvv.g02gfr12930:
>
> Currently I'm using Fedora 14, but after upgrading my PC I decided to
> try and install Fedora 16 from the KDE spin, (no problem). The problem
> arises when trying to do yum updates, I get multiple errors, some of
> which stop Fedora 16 from shutting down. Sadly, based on this
> experience, and previous experience trying to upgrade to Fedora 15 I'm
> considering looking into another Linux distribution. My patience with
> these problems, (2+ days already), is rapidly wearing thin! Piecemeal
> updating by trial and error makes for a less than friendly release!
>
> Looks like I may have to wait for Fedora 17 for a yum friendly release.

* describe you problem exactly
* describe the packages changing behavior
* describe you hardware

and first please read your post and think about what you could
do with this informations as a foreigner!

normally i owuld downgrade all packages introducing the problems
and update them one by one to identifie what triggers the problem

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Old 02-08-2012, 05:50 PM
"n2xssvv.g02gfr12930"
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16

On 08/02/12 18:37, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 08.02.2012 19:27, schrieb n2xssvv.g02gfr12930:
>>
>> Currently I'm using Fedora 14, but after upgrading my PC I decided to
>> try and install Fedora 16 from the KDE spin, (no problem). The problem
>> arises when trying to do yum updates, I get multiple errors, some of
>> which stop Fedora 16 from shutting down. Sadly, based on this
>> experience, and previous experience trying to upgrade to Fedora 15 I'm
>> considering looking into another Linux distribution. My patience with
>> these problems, (2+ days already), is rapidly wearing thin! Piecemeal
>> updating by trial and error makes for a less than friendly release!
>>
>> Looks like I may have to wait for Fedora 17 for a yum friendly release.
>
> * describe you problem exactly
> * describe the packages changing behavior
> * describe you hardware
>
> and first please read your post and think about what you could
> do with this informations as a foreigner!
>
> normally i owuld downgrade all packages introducing the problems
> and update them one by one to identifie what triggers the problem
>
>
>
>
If only I could get repeatable errors! Rest assured I've been
persistent, but I've never had this many problems when
installing/upgrading a Fedora release. If another Linux distribution can
install and upgrade more easily then why should I persist with Fedora?
How much time would you be prepared to spend continually trying to
update with yum? No offence to anybody, but after persisting with Fedora
since Fedora core 2 I'm somewhat disappointed.
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:57 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16

Am 08.02.2012 19:50, schrieb n2xssvv.g02gfr12930:
> On 08/02/12 18:37, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>
>>
>> Am 08.02.2012 19:27, schrieb n2xssvv.g02gfr12930:
>>>
>>> Currently I'm using Fedora 14, but after upgrading my PC I decided to
>>> try and install Fedora 16 from the KDE spin, (no problem). The problem
>>> arises when trying to do yum updates, I get multiple errors, some of
>>> which stop Fedora 16 from shutting down. Sadly, based on this
>>> experience, and previous experience trying to upgrade to Fedora 15 I'm
>>> considering looking into another Linux distribution. My patience with
>>> these problems, (2+ days already), is rapidly wearing thin! Piecemeal
>>> updating by trial and error makes for a less than friendly release!
>>>
>>> Looks like I may have to wait for Fedora 17 for a yum friendly release.
>>
>> * describe you problem exactly
>> * describe the packages changing behavior
>> * describe you hardware
>>
>> and first please read your post and think about what you could
>> do with this informations as a foreigner!
>>
>> normally i owuld downgrade all packages introducing the problems
>> and update them one by one to identifie what triggers the problem
>>
> If only I could get repeatable errors! Rest assured I've been
> persistent, but I've never had this many problems when
> installing/upgrading a Fedora release. If another Linux distribution can
> install and upgrade more easily then why should I persist with Fedora?

because if you can not isolate the problem the chances are
good taht the problem will hapenn there also on your specific
configuration, only later because feodra was earkier with
whatever was changed?

> How much time would you be prepared to spend continually trying to
> update with yum? No offence to anybody, but after persisting with Fedora
> since Fedora core 2 I'm somewhat disappointed.

i know that the release quality get more and more worse and hope
the people resposible for that will relize this as soon as possible
but it doe snot help screaming and running away because changes in
fedora will hit most distributons sooner or later and mostly
SUCH sort of troubles can be isolated easily

why?

because it works before you upgrade the system again
so it was not introduced with the release himself
so you can look what packages are updated

in combination with infos about your environment this can be fixed,
but with only whining nobody is able to help you, desribe your
probles as exactly as possible or your post is useless



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Old 02-08-2012, 07:51 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16

On 02/08/2012 10:57 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:

i know that the release quality get more and more worse and hope
the people resposible for that will relize this as soon as possible
but it doe snot help screaming and running away because changes in
fedora will hit most distributons sooner or later and mostly
SUCH sort of troubles can be isolated easily


Fedora 15 and 16 seem to be glaring exceptions to Fedora's usual QA,
partially because of the people who (like me) skipped 15 and went right
from 14 to 16.


I've been giving the situation some thought, and I think that the main
cause for all of the trouble is that Fedora made major changes to three
different systems at the same time: going from Legacy grub to grub2,
going from init to systemd and, for most people, going from Gnome2 to
Gnome3. Each of those changes has its own problems and pitfalls, and
putting all three of them into the same Fedora version was probably a
Bad Idea.


The change in grub was probably the most transparent for most of us
because if we upgraded, the new grub software was installed, but not
actually put into use; AIUI, if you use the preupgrade route, you still
need to run grub2-install yourself or you're still using legacy grub.
Even so, there are bound to be occasional teething troubles, no matter
how careful the QA is. In this case, I'm getting the impression that
there either wasn't enough testing on older hardware or the issues found
by such testing weren't considered worth correcting.


I don't use Gnome, so I shan't comment on it except to say that the devs
seem to have a rather inflated idea of how much RAM their userbase tends
to have. As far as systemd goes, more thought should have been done
(IMAO) on making the transition as smooth and transparent as possible.
You shouldn't expect the average non-techy user to know how to do
whatever's needed to find out if all of the services that were started
at boot still are or that any services that had been explicitly disabled
weren't re-enabled. Yes, a professional sysadmin with dozens of servers
to keep running can be expected to check, but the average home user with
one Linux box isn't going to expect to need that.


I'm hoping that by the time Fedora 17 is ready, most, if not all of
these issues will be corrected and that things will be back to normal.
In closing, I'd just like to point out that there are very few threads
about installation problems with F16 on the fedoraforums, especially
when you compare it to the constant cries for help F15 generated.

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Old 02-08-2012, 08:41 PM
"n2xssvv.g02gfr12930"
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16

On 08/02/12 20:51, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 02/08/2012 10:57 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> i know that the release quality get more and more worse and hope
>> the people resposible for that will relize this as soon as possible
>> but it doe snot help screaming and running away because changes in
>> fedora will hit most distributons sooner or later and mostly
>> SUCH sort of troubles can be isolated easily
>
> Fedora 15 and 16 seem to be glaring exceptions to Fedora's usual QA,
> partially because of the people who (like me) skipped 15 and went right
> from 14 to 16.
>
> I've been giving the situation some thought, and I think that the main
> cause for all of the trouble is that Fedora made major changes to three
> different systems at the same time: going from Legacy grub to grub2,
> going from init to systemd and, for most people, going from Gnome2 to
> Gnome3. Each of those changes has its own problems and pitfalls, and
> putting all three of them into the same Fedora version was probably a
> Bad Idea.
>
> The change in grub was probably the most transparent for most of us
> because if we upgraded, the new grub software was installed, but not
> actually put into use; AIUI, if you use the preupgrade route, you still
> need to run grub2-install yourself or you're still using legacy grub.
> Even so, there are bound to be occasional teething troubles, no matter
> how careful the QA is. In this case, I'm getting the impression that
> there either wasn't enough testing on older hardware or the issues found
> by such testing weren't considered worth correcting.
>
> I don't use Gnome, so I shan't comment on it except to say that the devs
> seem to have a rather inflated idea of how much RAM their userbase tends
> to have. As far as systemd goes, more thought should have been done
> (IMAO) on making the transition as smooth and transparent as possible.
> You shouldn't expect the average non-techy user to know how to do
> whatever's needed to find out if all of the services that were started
> at boot still are or that any services that had been explicitly disabled
> weren't re-enabled. Yes, a professional sysadmin with dozens of servers
> to keep running can be expected to check, but the average home user with
> one Linux box isn't going to expect to need that.
>
> I'm hoping that by the time Fedora 17 is ready, most, if not all of
> these issues will be corrected and that things will be back to normal.
> In closing, I'd just like to point out that there are very few threads
> about installation problems with F16 on the fedoraforums, especially
> when you compare it to the constant cries for help F15 generated.

I agree, and I suspect it is better to do a fresh install of Fedora 16.
Anyway as I noted elsewhere I found a more reliable yum update order
that enabled me to get all the updates installed without much fuss.
Something I'll be adding to my hints and tips files.
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Old 02-08-2012, 09:00 PM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 12:51:08 -0800
Joe Zeff <joe@zeff.us> wrote:

> On 02/08/2012 10:57 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> > i know that the release quality get more and more worse and hope
> > the people resposible for that will relize this as soon as possible
> > but it doe snot help screaming and running away because changes in
> > fedora will hit most distributons sooner or later and mostly
> > SUCH sort of troubles can be isolated easily
>
> Fedora 15 and 16 seem to be glaring exceptions to Fedora's usual QA,
> partially because of the people who (like me) skipped 15 and went
> right from 14 to 16.
>
> I've been giving the situation some thought, and I think that the
> main cause for all of the trouble is that Fedora made major changes
> to three different systems at the same time: going from Legacy grub
> to grub2, going from init to systemd and, for most people, going from
> Gnome2 to Gnome3. Each of those changes has its own problems and
> pitfalls, and putting all three of them into the same Fedora version
> was probably a Bad Idea.

Just a correction here:

systemd and gnome3 were fedora 15 features.
grub2 was fedora 16.

systemd was planned for f14, but was pushed back as not ready.
If it had not been, these three things would have all been in different
releases.

> The change in grub was probably the most transparent for most of us
> because if we upgraded, the new grub software was installed, but not
> actually put into use; AIUI, if you use the preupgrade route, you
> still need to run grub2-install yourself or you're still using legacy
> grub. Even so, there are bound to be occasional teething troubles, no
> matter how careful the QA is. In this case, I'm getting the
> impression that there either wasn't enough testing on older hardware
> or the issues found by such testing weren't considered worth
> correcting.

If you upgrade with anything except yum, you will get grub2.
(With one exception... if you use efi, you get grub1-efi).
...snipp...

> I'm hoping that by the time Fedora 17 is ready, most, if not all of
> these issues will be corrected and that things will be back to
> normal. In closing, I'd just like to point out that there are very
> few threads about installation problems with F16 on the fedoraforums,
> especially when you compare it to the constant cries for help F15
> generated.

Yeah, I'd urge folks to download and try out alphas and betas of 17 and
report any bugs they find.

kevin
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Old 02-08-2012, 09:17 PM
David
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16

On 2/8/2012 3:51 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 02/08/2012 10:57 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> i know that the release quality get more and more worse and hope
>> the people resposible for that will relize this as soon as possible
>> but it doe snot help screaming and running away because changes in
>> fedora will hit most distributons sooner or later and mostly
>> SUCH sort of troubles can be isolated easily
>
> Fedora 15 and 16 seem to be glaring exceptions to Fedora's usual QA,
> partially because of the people who (like me) skipped 15 and went right
> from 14 to 16.
>
> I've been giving the situation some thought, and I think that the main
> cause for all of the trouble is that Fedora made major changes to three
> different systems at the same time: going from Legacy grub to grub2,
> going from init to systemd and, for most people, going from Gnome2 to
> Gnome3. Each of those changes has its own problems and pitfalls, and
> putting all three of them into the same Fedora version was probably a
> Bad Idea.
>
> The change in grub was probably the most transparent for most of us
> because if we upgraded, the new grub software was installed, but not
> actually put into use; AIUI, if you use the preupgrade route, you still
> need to run grub2-install yourself or you're still using legacy grub.
> Even so, there are bound to be occasional teething troubles, no matter
> how careful the QA is. In this case, I'm getting the impression that
> there either wasn't enough testing on older hardware or the issues found
> by such testing weren't considered worth correcting.
>
> I don't use Gnome, so I shan't comment on it except to say that the devs
> seem to have a rather inflated idea of how much RAM their userbase tends
> to have. As far as systemd goes, more thought should have been done
> (IMAO) on making the transition as smooth and transparent as possible.
> You shouldn't expect the average non-techy user to know how to do
> whatever's needed to find out if all of the services that were started
> at boot still are or that any services that had been explicitly disabled
> weren't re-enabled. Yes, a professional sysadmin with dozens of servers
> to keep running can be expected to check, but the average home user with
> one Linux box isn't going to expect to need that.
>
> I'm hoping that by the time Fedora 17 is ready, most, if not all of
> these issues will be corrected and that things will be back to normal.
> In closing, I'd just like to point out that there are very few threads
> about installation problems with F16 on the fedoraforums, especially
> when you compare it to the constant cries for help F15 generated.


If you 'liked' Fedora 16 you will just 'love' the new/moved filesystem. :-)

--

David

"May your road lead you to warm sands."
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Old 02-08-2012, 09:33 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16

On 02/08/2012 02:17 PM, David wrote:

If you 'liked' Fedora 16 you will just 'love' the new/moved filesystem. :-)


Let's just say that when I ask for help on the Fedoraforum, I'm careful
to point out that $FOO worked until I "upgraded" from F14 to F16. Why I
always put quotation marks around that word will be left as an exercise
for the reader.

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Old 02-08-2012, 09:36 PM
Pete Travis
 
Default Yum and Fedora 16

On Feb 8, 2012 11:50 AM, "n2xssvv.g02gfr12930" <n2xssvv.g02gfr12930@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>

> On 08/02/12 18:37, Reindl Harald wrote:

> >

> >

> > Am 08.02.2012 19:27, schrieb n2xssvv.g02gfr12930:

> >>

> >> Currently I'm using Fedora 14, but after upgrading my PC I decided to

> >> try and install Fedora 16 from the KDE spin, (no problem). The problem

> >> arises when trying to do yum updates, I get multiple errors, some of

> >> which stop Fedora 16 from shutting down. Sadly, based on this

> >> experience, and previous experience trying to upgrade to Fedora 15 I'm

> >> considering looking into another Linux distribution. My patience with

> >> these problems, (2+ days already), is rapidly wearing thin! Piecemeal

> >> updating by trial and error makes for a less than friendly release!

> >>

> >> Looks like I may have to wait for Fedora 17 for a yum friendly release.

> >

> > * describe you problem exactly

> > * describe the packages changing behavior

> > * describe you hardware

> >

> > and first please read your post and think about what you could

> > do with this informations as a foreigner!

> >

> > normally i owuld downgrade all packages introducing the problems

> > and update them one by one to identifie what triggers the problem

> >

> >

> >

> >

> If only I could get repeatable errors! Rest assured I've been

> persistent, but I've never had this many problems when

> installing/upgrading a Fedora release. If another Linux distribution can

> install and upgrade more easily then why should I persist with Fedora?

> How much time would you be prepared to spend continually trying to

> update with yum? No offence to anybody, but after persisting with Fedora

> since Fedora core 2 I'm somewhat disappointed.

> --

> users mailing list

> users@lists.fedoraproject.org

> To unsubscribe or change subscription options:

> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users

> Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines

> Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org



I'm not clear on your problem, so I can only help with questions.


It sounds like you performed a new install from the KDE livecd, on new hardware, and while the install succeeded, you are unable to update the system.* Is this correct?


Are your problems with yum describeable? Did updates ever work?


Have you tried anything besides repeated 'yum update' attempts?


It might be helpful to your potential supporters to have more information.

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