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Old 04-02-2008, 07:18 PM
"Dick Seabrook"
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 3:08 PM, tom <tfreeman@intel.digichem.net> wrote:

On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Jim wrote:




You know, if memory serves, some of the list members are approaching four score years. They should remember what they were doing about the time the first commercial digital computers were released upon the world.


That would be the UNIVAC I in 1952, which went to the Census Bureau as I recall.
I was too young for computing -- spent most of the time watching Arthur Godfrey
and Jerry Lester (remember him?) on TV.** Seems to me that was also the year

Elizabeth II was crowned, Adlai Stevenson lost the election to Ike, etc....
I got a way to go before I hit four-score!Dick S.
--
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http://enterprise.aacc.edu/~rhs ~ Speed the Net!


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Old 04-02-2008, 08:30 PM
"Michael D. Setzer II"
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

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Hash: SHA1

On 2 Apr 2008 at 18:09, Matthew Saltzman wrote:

From: Matthew Saltzman <mjs@clemson.edu>
To: hlhowell@pacbell.net, For users of Fedora <fedora-
list@redhat.com>
Organization: Clemson University
Date sent: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 18:09:32 +0000
Copies to: Subject: Re: Linux is KING - Couldn't be
hacked - Mac, Vista went down in
flames
Send reply to: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@redhat.com>
<mailto:fedora-list-
request@redhat.com?subject=unsubscribe>
<mailto:fedora-list-
request@redhat.com?subject=subscribe>

>
> On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:48 -0700, Les wrote:
> > On my punch cards they did. Every card had a number sequential to the
> > sequence. The punch we used inserted them automatically. Well, the
> > programming card did. The reference number used for calls may have been
> > different, but I don't remember it.
>
> Those weren't line numbers per se (in the sense that BASIC had line
> numbers, for example). In FORTRAN, an 80-column card was divided into
> fields:
>
> Column 1: 'C' indicated a comment line, ' ' a code line.
>

Columnt 1-5: is for line numbers and on many compilers they had to be right
aligned.

> Column 2-6: Statement label numbers. These were arbitrary numbers used
> as targets for FORMAT, GOTO and "computed GOTO" (now *that* was a flow
> control concept!), and DO statements. These did not have to obey any
> ordering rules. There was no concept of an if-else block or a while
> loop with a logical test, so flow control was handled by GOTOs of some
> variety. Targeted statements were usually CONTINUE statements (no-ops),
> because there was some ambiguity regarding when the targeted statement
> was actually executed, and because it made reorganizing the flow a bit
> easier (especially with punchcards[1]).
>

Column 6: Was used for continuing information from the previous card.
Generally putting a 1 in column 6 for the first continuation line, and 2, and so
on, but most didn't care. COBOL uses Column 7 for this, and uses a hyphen
if splitting a word or quoted text.


> Column 7-72: Code.
>
> Column 73-80: Ignored. Intended to be used for sequence numbers so you
> could sort the cards down in order if somebody dropped the deck. The
> numbers could be anything really, for example a three-letter alpha code
> identifying the deck and a four-digit sequence number.
>
> (Somebody is bound to correct me on the actual column numbers, now...)
>
> Aside: In the early FORTRANs, the body of a loop was always executed
> once, even though the test was at the top of the loop. So you needed a
> guard if you wanted to avoid making any passes through the loop at all.
> That changed with FORTRAN 77.
>
> [1] Of course, you'd want to re-sequence cards at some point if you
> reordered them.
>
> >
> > Our programs were HUGE, multiple trays. Each tray was denoted by the
> > color of the diagonal line. We had 8 colors, so I guess we never had
> > more than 8 trays, because I don't remember pairs of lines anywhere.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Les H
> > On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 11:27 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> > > Les wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:36 -0700, Richard England wrote:
> > > >> Try dropping two trays , each about 2.5 feet long. They did that to me
> > > >> in the data center when I was in grad school. Luckily I had just
> > > >> printed they contents out and resequenced them. The manager of the data
> > > >> center had a cow when I told the staff to put the deck back together,
> > > >> but my advisor (bless him) stood behind me and insisted that if they had
> > > >> taken due care it wouldn't have happened.
> > > >>
> > > >> Ah cards, loved 'em (not). And drum cards. Boy there was an arcane art!
> > > >>
> > > >> ~~R
> > > >>
> > > > Did you have the diagonal line drawn on the top to help?
> > > >
> > > > If they were Fortran, or COBOL, you could always sort on the line
> > > > number. I don't remember the other languages having line numbers.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Les H
> > > >
> > > Are you sure about Fortran and COBOL having line numbers? I didn't
> > > use COBOL enough to remember any more, but I remember only using
> > > line numbers or labels in FORTRAN if they were the target of a
> > > branching instruction.
> > >
> > > Mikkel
> > > --
> > > fedora-list mailing list
> > > fedora-list@redhat.com
> > > To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
> >
> >
> --
> Matthew Saltzman
>
> Clemson University Math Sciences
> mjs AT clemson DOT edu
> http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs
>
> --
> fedora-list mailing list
> fedora-list@redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list


+----------------------------------------------------------+
Michael D. Setzer II - Computer Science Instructor
Guam Community College Computer Center
mailto:mikes@kuentos.guam.net
mailto:msetzerii@gmail.com
http://www.guam.net/home/mikes
Guam - Where America's Day Begins
+----------------------------------------------------------+

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu (Original)
Number of Seti Units Returned: 19,471
Processing time: 32 years, 290 days, 12 hours, 58 minutes
(Total Hours: 287,489)

BOINC@HOME CREDITS
SETI 5,085,758.225981 | EINSTEIN 1,509,008.886094 | ROSETTA
454,237.929708


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Old 04-03-2008, 04:20 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 18:09:32 +0000,
Matthew Saltzman <mjs@clemson.edu> wrote:
>
> Column 1: 'C' indicated a comment line, ' ' a code line.
>
> Column 2-6: Statement label numbers. These were arbitrary numbers used

You forgot the continuation column, which I believe was column 6.
A 0 or blank signified a new statement, other characters signified
a continuation of the previous statement.

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Old 04-03-2008, 10:25 PM
Nicholas Robinson
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Thursday 03 April 2008 22:58:29 Tim wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 08:46 -0500, George Yanos wrote:
> > Speaking as a geezer who still has thousands of punch cards in the
> > basement, and carefully picked a color laserjet partly on the basis of
> > its ability to print on them, punch cards were only rarely hacked.
> >
> > You could get the attention of the old phone company by sending back
> > your punch card bill slip with different holes than the cards had when
> > they sent them.
>
> Hahaha. I'm kind of surprised that they'd give something out to clients
> that'd make them vulnerable.
>
> Way back when I worked in a library, we used barcode labels on each item
> for the library management system. We'd have people return things with
> extra lines coloured in the barcode, who always swore that they didn't
> do it, and it must have been like that when they borrowed it. It never
> occurred to them that we knew that was rubbish. The items were scanned
> on the way out, and back on the way in. If it was tampered with
> beforehand, they'd have errored when first scanned. We made them stump
> up the cash for relabeling.
>
> --
> (This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
> important to the thread.)
>
> Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
> I read messages from the public lists.

I'm sorry if I'm intruding on your privacy, but why on earth do you what to
print on punch cards in 2008? Are these punch cards already punched? Is it
for some sort of pre-Microsoft theme park merchandise? God, I hope you reply
before I go to bed or I may lie awake the rest of the night wondering...

I started working in 1984, two weeks before our punch room shut forever and
re-trained the operators for word-processing. Apart from one colleague who
kept a box-full for old times sake, most of the old boys (and three old
girls) were glad to see the back of them (the cards that is, not the
operators).

Nick

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Old 04-04-2008, 05:40 AM
Richard England
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

Les wrote:

On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:36 -0700, Richard England wrote:


BRUCE STANLEY wrote:


*/Tim <ignored_mailbox@yahoo.com.au>/* wrote:

Tim:
>> have the CPU op-code cheat sheet in the coat pocket... ;-)

Les:
> I memorized it and threw it away. Does that mean I fail the test?

If you code in pen and ink before even going near the computer, that
counts.

Back when I were a lad, we didn't use no debugger. We'd print the
code,
and attack the printout with pencils out to mark all the bugs and
corrections, then type the changes back in.

Tim, waiting for one of the old codgers to tell us a tale of how they
had to make the valves and warm them up before starting... ;-)

=========

Type them in? I remember punching them in on Hollerith cards.

Dropped a pile of them once.


That motivated me to have the punch card machine to put sequence numbers
on the cards so that they could be resorted again.
punch card machine

Try dropping two trays , each about 2.5 feet long. They did that to me
in the data center when I was in grad school. Luckily I had just
printed they contents out and resequenced them. The manager of the data
center had a cow when I told the staff to put the deck back together,
but my advisor (bless him) stood behind me and insisted that if they had
taken due care it wouldn't have happened.


Ah cards, loved 'em (not). And drum cards. Boy there was an arcane art!

~~R



Did you have the diagonal line drawn on the top to help?

If they were Fortran, or COBOL, you could always sort on the line
number. I don't remember the other languages having line numbers.

Regards,
Les H


Yes, they were lined with a double line. But what made it easier for the
date center to reassemble was that this was the first "run" after I had
repunched the whole deck and put brand new sequence numbers on the cards.


BTW, columns 73-80 of the punch cards were ignored in Fortran so after
we had a good "production" quality program, we would have it punched by
the system card punch and have the cards sequentially number in those
columns.

We were running research simulations so the program stayed constant and
only the data portion of the deck was changing, only about 30-40 cards,
if I recall.


Simulating rolling tires to reduce friction due to flexing of the tire
construct. Now there was a research project.... :-)



~~R

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Old 04-04-2008, 05:46 AM
Richard England
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

Matthew Saltzman wrote:

On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:48 -0700, Les wrote:


On my punch cards they did. Every card had a number sequential to the
sequence. The punch we used inserted them automatically. Well, the
programming card did. The reference number used for calls may have been
different, but I don't remember it.



Those weren't line numbers per se (in the sense that BASIC had line
numbers, for example). In FORTRAN, an 80-column card was divided into
fields:

Column 1: 'C' indicated a comment line, ' ' a code line.

Column 2-6: Statement label numbers. These were arbitrary numbers used
as targets for FORMAT, GOTO and "computed GOTO" (now *that* was a flow
control concept!), and DO statements. These did not have to obey any
ordering rules. There was no concept of an if-else block or a while
loop with a logical test, so flow control was handled by GOTOs of some
variety. Targeted statements were usually CONTINUE statements (no-ops),
because there was some ambiguity regarding when the targeted statement
was actually executed, and because it made reorganizing the flow a bit
easier (especially with punchcards[1]).

Column 7-72: Code.

Column 73-80: Ignored. Intended to be used for sequence numbers so you
could sort the cards down in order if somebody dropped the deck. The
numbers could be anything really, for example a three-letter alpha code
identifying the deck and a four-digit sequence number.

(Somebody is bound to correct me on the actual column numbers, now...)

Aside: In the early FORTRANs, the body of a loop was always executed
once, even though the test was at the top of the loop. So you needed a
guard if you wanted to avoid making any passes through the loop at all.
That changed with FORTRAN 77.

[1] Of course, you'd want to re-sequence cards at some point if you
reordered them.



Our programs were HUGE, multiple trays. Each tray was denoted by the
color of the diagonal line. We had 8 colors, so I guess we never had
more than 8 trays, because I don't remember pairs of lines anywhere.

Regards,
Les H
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 11:27 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:


Les wrote:


On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:36 -0700, Richard England wrote:

Try dropping two trays , each about 2.5 feet long. They did that to me
in the data center when I was in grad school. Luckily I had just
printed they contents out and resequenced them. The manager of the data
center had a cow when I told the staff to put the deck back together,
but my advisor (bless him) stood behind me and insisted that if they had
taken due care it wouldn't have happened.


Ah cards, loved 'em (not). And drum cards. Boy there was an arcane art!

~~R



Did you have the diagonal line drawn on the top to help?

If they were Fortran, or COBOL, you could always sort on the line
number. I don't remember the other languages having line numbers.

Regards,
Les H


Are you sure about Fortran and COBOL having line numbers? I didn't
use COBOL enough to remember any more, but I remember only using
line numbers or labels in FORTRAN if they were the target of a
branching instruction.


Mikkel
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You always incremented your statement numbers by 10 so when you had to
add a loop or goto you could add at least 9 before you had to redo all
the statement numbers.... tip from an almost geezer (hey you are not a
geezer, you're an "experienced person").


~~R

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Old 04-04-2008, 05:52 AM
Richard England
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

Dick Seabrook wrote:



On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 3:08 PM, tom <tfreeman@intel.digichem.net
<mailto:tfreeman@intel.digichem.net>> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Jim wrote:

You know, if memory serves, some of the list members are
approaching four score years. They should remember what they were
doing about the time the first commercial digital computers were
released upon the world.

That would be the UNIVAC I in 1952, which went to the Census Bureau as
I recall.
I was too young for computing -- spent most of the time watching
Arthur Godfrey
and Jerry Lester (remember him?) on TV. Seems to me that was also
the year
Elizabeth II was crowned, Adlai Stevenson lost the election to Ike,
etc....

I got a way to go before I hit four-score!
Dick S.
--
Dick Seabrook ~ Anne Arundel Community College
http://enterprise.aacc.edu/~rhs <http://enterprise.aacc.edu/%7Erhs> ~
Speed the Net!

Arthur Godfrey and Lipton's Tea. My god I haven't thought of him for AGES!

~~R

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Old 04-06-2008, 03:45 PM
Richard England
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

Ric Moore wrote:

On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 22:52 -0700, Richard England wrote:



Arthur Godfrey and Lipton's Tea. My god I haven't thought of him for AGES!



Dave Garroway and Mister Muggs? <grins> Ric



I'll see your Garroway and raise you a "Winky-dink".

~~R

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Old 04-07-2008, 03:42 AM
Richard England
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

Ric Moore wrote:

On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 08:45 -0700, Richard England wrote:


Ric Moore wrote:


On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 22:52 -0700, Richard England wrote:




Arthur Godfrey and Lipton's Tea. My god I haven't thought of him for AGES!



Dave Garroway and Mister Muggs? <grins> Ric




I'll see your Garroway and raise you a "Winky-dink".


Would you believe, Winky-Dink is on the Dish Network? I tried to view
it, but we don't subscribe to that package. Someone just shoot me. I'll
see your raise and raise you a Captain Midnight. Let's see what you're
playing with! <cackles> Ric


How about a Captain Video? I'd through in a Howdy Doody but everone has
one of those! ;-)


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Old 04-07-2008, 01:11 PM
"max bianco"
 
Default Linux is KING - Couldn't be hacked - Mac, Vista went down in flames

On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Da Rock <rock_on_the_web@comcen.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 13:23 +0930, Tim wrote:
> > On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 09:36 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
> > > As for computers; what really gets on my goat is that they're not put to
> > > full use. We originally put men on the moon with them, we have games
> > > that are semi intelligent that we compete against, and YET we still use
> > > them simply as a typewriter or communication device. Yes, they can be
> > > used as this, but they have so much grunt these days they could be doing
> > > the mundane of our tasks in life. Stupid M$ has made our machines dumb,
> > > and our computers still run as slow as they did under 3.1 with all the
> > > shit they put in the software.
> > >
> > > Thats why SETI and other boinc projects can use our collective wasted
> > > computing power as a supercomputer more powerful than one put to
> > > dedicated use. Really seems silly doesn't it? We dreamed of geek houses
> > > in the seventies and eighties, and still we haven't got there- and not
> > > due to the lack of technology...
> >
> > I tend to sway the other direction. We're all too quick at throwing
> > computing into areas where it doesn't really belong. e.g. Schools seem
> > to think that putting a computer somewhere is the answer, never mind
> > that personal teaching would be more appropriate. School's as much an
> > exercise in learning social skills and doing what you're supposed to be
> > doing, as it is in learning how to do math, etc. And what do we do with
> > the students sorely lacking in social skills? Put them on a computer,
> > often flying solo...
> >
> > Then there's the home situation. In days gone past, the most difficult
> > technical thing anyone had to do at home was get the television to show
> > a decent picture. Now we do have computers in media centres that make
> > you jump through hoops to try and connect two devices together in a way
> > that works. Digital video that doesn't work across different things
> > because of imcompatible techniques (I hesitate to refer to them as
> > "standards"). Recorders that forever blink 12:00 at you. Digital
> > receivers that stutter and repeat where analogue receivers give near
> > perfect results. Computerised washing machines that aren't any better
> > than the old ones, even worse if you want to do something simple like
> > repeat one cycle because something went wrong. And that Pile of Crap
> > running Windows that spews viruses and spam around the world.
> >
> > Our leisure time has gone from enjoying the company of friends, reading
> > a book, listening to music, watching a film, to spending lots of time
> > and money maintaining a plethora of technology at home, or just putting
> > up with it not working right.
>
> So you'd throw the baby out with the bathwater here?
>
> The concept is right, and would yield a plethora of opportunities- but
> it MUST BE DONE RIGHT. You're damned right about the M$ shitbox spewing
> out crap. This thread and punch cards thread, plus the majority of the
> audience on this list (it seems) come from an era where the job was done
> right and it Just Works (TM) (I hope I haven't offended the coiner). M$
> comes along and cheapifies it all, but it does the job in opening the
> public to computing. What should have happened was that the training
> wheels should have come off- but instead users have hung on to them and
> think they're clever getting them to do things like video conferencing.
> They should have moved on to something that truely is customizable such
> any *nix variation. I'd even allow them Ubuntu if it got them off the
> damn drug produced by M$.
>
> And there is addiction through and through.
>
> Computers could be put to use as they were intended to- to make life
> easier- but the majority of corporations are unwilling to throw money at
> something to do the whole job when they could get away with doing a half
> assed job instead. Plus they make money because the unit craps out and
> the consumer has to buy another one.
>
> I had an old man come into my shop one day with the ccd piece of a
> scanner (at which point I'm almost physically slapping my head!) and
> requesting a spare part for it. I then sympathetically explained that
> he'd need a special jig to replace it anyway so there's no spare part,
> and of course that got him started on corporate wastefulness and so on
> for over half an hour in a lecture to me. I agreed totally, but I
> couldn't help him then. This is the half assed job we're talking about-
> maybe not with scanners, but the majority of products (especially the
> ones you mentioned- washers and dryers, HiFi equipment, etc).
>
> The fact of the matter is: any job worth doing is worth doing properly.
> Make it work. For those of you who think the majority of work has been
> done and now its only tweaking: its not over. There's miles to be done,
> to get that slogan back into gear, make it Just Work (TM).
>
> As for the social aspect, consider this: we're arguing this point across
> several continents! If it weren't for computers, we couldn't be doing
> this. There are dangers, but this is as much of a social skill as
> learning not to talk to strangers. So everyone can learn something. More
> social activities can occur than ever before across a wide area. Forget
> just the local dance hall social scene- try a GLOBAL dance hall.
>
> And the choice is there to do what you want- or you can put it all aside
> and get outdoors or whatever.
>
> In this point Tim, I agree with your view of the crap, but I'd ask that
> you consider the wider ramifications of what life would be like IF
> computers were put to good use, and done so properly. In former
> civilizations we had slaves (I'm not saying this is a good thing either-
> I abhor the way they were treated) to make life easier, now we need to
> use technology to achieve the same lifestyle- FOR ALL PEOPLE, not an
> elite few. We can achieve something never achievable before...
>
>
>
> --

It comes down to education. People put up with crap because they don't
know any better. The majority of the school system uses M$ Office and
pays for the privilege. They could easily use Open Office which is
free and the equal of M$ Office in everyway that counts. They could
save a ton of money, donate to help improve the project, and still
come out ahead. All the money saved could be invested where it
matters, like a working terminal on every student's desk.


Max

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