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Old 01-12-2012, 02:41 PM
Patrick O'Callaghan
 
Default no internet connection with Fedora16

On 11/01/12 10:47 PM, John De Graw wrote:
> I have the computer wired to a hub which is wired to the router. Three
> other computers (wireless & wired) are going through the same router and
> having no difficulties. When I run the "ifconfig" command in terminal
> it says it is up and connected. When I ran the "ethtool em1" command I
> got the "cannot get 'wake-on-lan settings: Operation not permitted' ".
> Netstat command results show connection also. I can "ping" any website
> I want to with positive results. I just can't get a connection through
> Firefox or any other web browser I can download. DoggoneBob.
>
> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:22 PM, Alchemist <raimiiic@gmail.com
> <mailto:raimiiic@gmail.com>> wrote:

Please don't top-post on this list. See the Guidelines.

poc

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Old 01-12-2012, 09:35 PM
Michael Hannon
 
Default no internet connection with Fedora16

> From: Joe Zeff <joe@zeff.us>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 10:46 AM


Hi, Joe.

> My desktop doesn't use NM, and for a very good reason: it nuked my DNS
> numbers every time I rebooted until I permanently disabled it.* I've not had
> a single issue of that kind since I went back to using network.

I'm beginning to think that resistance is futile and have started to accept
the inevitability of NM.* OTOH, I run my own name server for my tiny home
network and was none too pleased to find NM wiping my name server out of
/etc/resolv.conf.

I was querying this list about a somewhat-related problem when somebody (don't
recall the name offhand) made the brilliant suggestion to mark resolv.conf as
"immutable".* I've added the following to my resolv.conf to remind me of what
I did and how to undo it:

*** #
*** # I've marked this file as "immutable" via:
*** #
*** #*** chattr +i resolv.conf
*** #
*** # To undo that:
*** #
*** #*** chattr -i resolv.conf
***
I haven't been mugged by NM since I did this.

BTW, I did the same thing to my iptables file to keep some helpful system
utility (NM?) from messing with my configuration.

-- Mike
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Old 01-12-2012, 09:56 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default no internet connection with Fedora16

On 01/12/2012 02:35 PM, Michael Hannon wrote:

I'm beginning to think that resistance is futile and have started to accept
the inevitability of NM.


Only if you're being Borged. IMAO, it's far more accurate to shout,
"Resistance is USELESS!" along with the Vogons.


Seriously, as I don't use it at all on my desktop, is there any reason
to have it running?

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Old 01-12-2012, 10:20 PM
"T.C. Hollingsworth"
 
Default no internet connection with Fedora16

On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Timothy Murphy <gayleard@eircom.net> wrote:
> Personally, I think NM tries to do too much;
> I would much prefer an application that just dealt with WiFi.

Really, wired connections require absolutely nothing extra that
NetworkManager wouldn't have to deal with for wifi connections, so why
not let it handle wired connections too?

I occasionally use a wired connection with my laptop that normally
uses wireless connections (usually to get a faster transfer rate to a
local machine, since I haven't felt the need to switch to 802.11n yet)
and it would be really annoying if I had to go mess around in
/etc/sysconfig to get it working every time. With NetworkManager I
just plug in an ethernet cord and it "just works".

-T.C.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:26 PM
Timothy Murphy
 
Default no internet connection with Fedora16

T.C. Hollingsworth wrote:

>> Personally, I think NM tries to do too much;
>> I would much prefer an application that just dealt with WiFi.
>
> Really, wired connections require absolutely nothing extra that
> NetworkManager wouldn't have to deal with for wifi connections, so why
> not let it handle wired connections too?

I've never, ever had any problem with an ethernet connection
when not running NM.
I've never had any problem with an ethernet connection on a laptop
whether running NM or not.
I have had problems on a server with only ethernet connections
when running NM, so I always switch it off on servers.

In other words, NM has never helped me with an ethernet connection;
and it has hindered me on a small number of occasions.
The same is also true of Bluetooth and mobile phone dongles;
NM has never helped and has sometimes hindered.

That's why I wish NM would stick to WiFi.

"A program should do one thing, and do it well", Ken Thompson.


--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College Dublin


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Old 01-14-2012, 01:18 AM
Tim
 
Default no internet connection with Fedora16

On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 14:26 +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> That's why I wish NM would stick to WiFi.

It's there to deal with changing networks, such as my laptop being
either wired or wireless, on any LAN, automatically. And it does that
fine, for me. To force it into only dealing with WiFi would make it
useless.

Where I can see Network Manager to be a pain is when users try to use a
badly set up LAN. Such as, half using DHCP, then manually overriding
some of the settings sent out by the DHCP server (all those people
complaining about hosts or resolve.conf files being ignored - who should
really be customising their DHCP client, not directly messing with
networking settings).

--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.



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Old 01-14-2012, 07:45 AM
Joe Zeff
 
Default no internet connection with Fedora16

On 01/13/2012 06:18 PM, Tim wrote:

Such as, half using DHCP, then manually overriding
some of the settings sent out by the DHCP server (all those people
complaining about hosts or resolve.conf files being ignored - who should
really be customising their DHCP client, not directly messing with
networking settings).


My desktop computer doesn't use DHCP for anything. It has a static IP
on the LAN and the DNS numbers are put in here. Why would NM mess with
resolve.conf under those conditions? And, although my laptop uses DHCP
for its IP address, I set up the DNS manually, but NM doesn't mess with
them.

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Old 01-14-2012, 12:00 PM
Timothy Murphy
 
Default no internet connection with Fedora16

Tim wrote:

> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 14:26 +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>> That's why I wish NM would stick to WiFi.
>
> It's there to deal with changing networks, such as my laptop being
> either wired or wireless, on any LAN, automatically. And it does that
> fine, for me. To force it into only dealing with WiFi would make it
> useless.

Do you mean that your ethernet and WiFi are on different LANs?
If they are, wouldn't it be simpler _not_ to use NM on the ethernet LAN?

In my case - which I would have thought was normal for home users -
both ethernet and WiFi are on the same network, 192.168.2.* .
It doesn't make the slightest difference if I plug in ethernet
(as I sometimes do, because it seems faster for some things),
whether I am using NM or not.

> Where I can see Network Manager to be a pain is when users try to use a
> badly set up LAN. Such as, half using DHCP, then manually overriding
> some of the settings sent out by the DHCP server (all those people
> complaining about hosts or resolve.conf files being ignored - who should
> really be customising their DHCP client, not directly messing with
> networking settings).

I'm not sure what you mean.
How do you "customise your DHCP client"?

NM doesn't work with 2 of my machines -
an EeePC and an old machine bought at Lidl.
It also doesn't work properly with Orinoco Classic Gold PCMCIA WiFi cards.
The network service works on all these.

In my opinion NM software is absurdly complicated,
largely because it is trying to do too much.
And also because no-one has ever documented
exactly what it is meant to be doing.




--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College Dublin


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Old 01-14-2012, 01:01 PM
Tim
 
Default no internet connection with Fedora16

Tim:
>> It's there to deal with changing networks, such as my laptop being
>> either wired or wireless, on any LAN, automatically. And it does that
>> fine, for me. To force it into only dealing with WiFi would make it
>> useless.

Timothy Murphy:
> Do you mean that your ethernet and WiFi are on different LANs?
> If they are, wouldn't it be simpler _not_ to use NM on the ethernet LAN?

I mean things like take the laptop home, it automatically joins my
network. Take it somewhere else, it automatically joins that network
(well, once I've established credentials, it'll automatically join that
network, now, and the next visit). And at home I have a wireless
network, but I could plug in the cable if I need to do something that
way.

And Network Manager manages that, I just plug in, or get near enough,
and connection just happens. I don't have to fiddle around with
bringing some network interface up on the command line, with any GUI, or
any sort of list. I don't have to change any settings to suit the
different network, Network Manager has handled changes when the network
came up (different DNS here, different IP there, etc.).


> I'm not sure what you mean.
> How do you "customise your DHCP client"?

Well, in the olden days, it was done in /etc/dhclient.conf file. Where,
you added in overrides that your client should use instead of the
information supplied by the server. Such as use some other DNS server
than it tells you to.

Of course, one problem with that is that people kept on fiddling with
their machine configuration, instead of setting up their DHCP server
properly. i.e. Put in working DNS server addresses into the DHCP
server.

Nowadays it ought to be done through some Network Manager options, to
customise the particular connection you're using. Again, it's the case
of configuring the network properly, rather than trying to bludgeon in
settings at a lower level.

> NM doesn't work with 2 of my machines -
> an EeePC and an old machine bought at Lidl.
> It also doesn't work properly with Orinoco Classic Gold PCMCIA WiFi cards.
> The network service works on all these.

I can't answer for that. The same drivers are used. It's just an
automation manager that follows a set of rules about what to do. It's
worked on anything that I've thrown at it. But then I have a working
DHCP server on my LAN. I'm not expecting an automation tool to work
without the normal data used for automation.

> In my opinion NM software is absurdly complicated,
> largely because it is trying to do too much.

It's not doing very much at all. Notice a network is available, apply
suitable configuration to your network to use it.

> And also because no-one has ever documented
> exactly what it is meant to be doing.

On that I agree. As well as a lack of good documentation, or even
explanation, there are some damn fool notices, like this one:

NetworkManager: <info> (wlan0): deactivating device (reason: 37).

What the hell does that mean? And, since there was no documentation,
the only way you could possibly find out would be to get the source
code, then reverse engineer the programmer's thought processes.

--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.



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Old 01-14-2012, 02:11 PM
Timothy Murphy
 
Default no internet connection with Fedora16

Tim wrote:

>>> It's there to deal with changing networks, such as my laptop being
>>> either wired or wireless, on any LAN, automatically. And it does that
>>> fine, for me. To force it into only dealing with WiFi would make it
>>> useless.
>
> Timothy Murphy:
>> Do you mean that your ethernet and WiFi are on different LANs?
>> If they are, wouldn't it be simpler _not_ to use NM on the ethernet LAN?
>
> I mean things like take the laptop home, it automatically joins my
> network. Take it somewhere else, it automatically joins that network
> (well, once I've established credentials, it'll automatically join that
> network, now, and the next visit). And at home I have a wireless
> network, but I could plug in the cable if I need to do something that
> way.

But would you plug in the ethernet cable anywhere else?

As it happens I do plug in my cable in two different locations
(in different countries).
As I said, I've had absolutely no problem in either place with this,
whether using NM or not using NM.
The computers ethernet MAC address is registered on both systems,
and I've actually used the same IP address in both places, for simplicity;
but I don't think that would have made any difference.

I haven't understood what problem, precisely, you would have
if you were not using NM?

> And Network Manager manages that, I just plug in, or get near enough,
> and connection just happens. I don't have to fiddle around with
> bringing some network interface up on the command line, with any GUI, or
> any sort of list. I don't have to change any settings to suit the
> different network, Network Manager has handled changes when the network
> came up (different DNS here, different IP there, etc.).
>
>> I'm not sure what you mean.
>> How do you "customise your DHCP client"?
>
> Well, in the olden days, it was done in /etc/dhclient.conf file. Where,
> you added in overrides that your client should use instead of the
> information supplied by the server. Such as use some other DNS server
> than it tells you to.

What difference would it make if you did name a different DNS server?

> Of course, one problem with that is that people kept on fiddling with
> their machine configuration, instead of setting up their DHCP server
> properly. i.e. Put in working DNS server addresses into the DHCP
> server.
>
> Nowadays it ought to be done through some Network Manager options, to
> customise the particular connection you're using. Again, it's the case
> of configuring the network properly, rather than trying to bludgeon in
> settings at a lower level.

It may surprise you to learn that NM does not work for many people
in certain situations;
so any system that assumes NM is running is just going to cause problems.

>> NM doesn't work with 2 of my machines -
>> an EeePC and an old machine bought at Lidl.
>> It also doesn't work properly with Orinoco Classic Gold PCMCIA WiFi
>> cards. The network service works on all these.
>
> I can't answer for that. The same drivers are used. It's just an
> automation manager that follows a set of rules about what to do.

Assuming "It" is NM, it makes certain assumptions
about the facilities available on the WiFi card,
assumptions that are not made by the network service.
In particular, NM seems to require (or used to require)
that the card should support some kind of "scanning".

> It's
> worked on anything that I've thrown at it. But then I have a working
> DHCP server on my LAN. I'm not expecting an automation tool to work
> without the normal data used for automation.

The NM problems I have with a small number of machines and cards
don't have anything to do with dhcp.

>> In my opinion NM software is absurdly complicated,
>> largely because it is trying to do too much.
>
> It's not doing very much at all. Notice a network is available, apply
> suitable configuration to your network to use it.

I looked at the code some time ago
(in order to interpret some of the error messages it was throwing out)
and I found it very difficult to follow.
Admittedly I am not very good at reading code.

It seemed to me - though I might be wrong -
that the code had been subject to many modifications,
apparently by different hands.


--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College Dublin


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