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Old 12-30-2011, 05:00 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default F16 - a good experience

On 12/30/2011 08:51 AM, Patrick Lists wrote:

Luckily the frippery extensions and some other good stuff on
extensions.gnome.org allow me to mimick GNOME2 pretty well.


Doesn't it bother anybody else here that many people have to use a bunch
of third-party extensions and mimic the way Gnome 2 worked just to make
Gnome 3 usable? Shouldn't Gnome 3 be easy for the average user right
out of the box? Am I the only person here who thinks there's something
wrong here? Of course, I don't use Gnome any more, and the above is
why, so you might not think I'm being objective here. Still, it makes
me wonder.

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Old 12-30-2011, 05:25 PM
"Roger K. Wells"
 
Default F16 - a good experience

On 12/30/2011 01:00 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 12/30/2011 08:51 AM, Patrick Lists wrote:

Luckily the frippery extensions and some other good stuff on
extensions.gnome.org allow me to mimick GNOME2 pretty well.



+1
Doesn't it bother anybody else here that many people have to use a
bunch of third-party extensions and mimic the way Gnome 2 worked just
to make Gnome 3 usable? Shouldn't Gnome 3 be easy for the average
user right out of the box? Am I the only person here who thinks
there's something wrong here? Of course, I don't use Gnome any more,
and the above is why, so you might not think I'm being objective
here. Still, it makes me wonder.



--
Roger Wells, P.E.
SAIC
221 Third St
Newport, RI 02840
401-847-4210 (voice)
401-849-1585 (fax)
roger.k.wells@saic.com

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Old 12-30-2011, 05:42 PM
Pete Travis
 
Default F16 - a good experience

On Dec 30, 2011 11:00 AM, "Joe Zeff" <joe@zeff.us> wrote:

>

> On 12/30/2011 08:51 AM, Patrick Lists wrote:

>>

>> Luckily the frippery extensions and some other good stuff on

>> extensions.gnome.org allow me to mimick GNOME2 pretty well.

>

>

> Doesn't it bother anybody else here that many people have to use a bunch of third-party extensions and mimic the way Gnome 2 worked just to make Gnome 3 usable? *Shouldn't Gnome 3 be easy for the average user right out of the box? *Am I the only person here who thinks there's something wrong here? *Of course, I don't use Gnome any more, and the above is why, so you might not think I'm being objective here. *Still, it makes me wonder.


>

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Hey Joe,


Gnome2 was great, I agree.* One could add widgets and gadgets galore to aid in their workflow, and that's gone now.


But! Have you looked at extensions.gnome.org? Its not widgets being offered here, you're looking at drop-in modularity of entire behavior sets.* You can activate them with a single mouse click! The extensions are written in Java, which makes a fairly low barrier to entry, and the gnome project has good documentation on making them and is responsive to questions asked in this context.



The complaints about gnome3 I read here, to me, approximate this statement :


"The gnome devs are focusing too much on making their product extensible, so that users can easily customize behaviors and drop in new features.* They should be focusing on creating the behaviors and features I want!* I shouldn't be forced to take advantage of the extensibility at the core of this software to have my expectations met!"



These statements loose validity with each repetition, and offer no support value.* I'm subscribed to this list to learn, and I'm tired of reading these snipes.

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Old 12-30-2011, 06:53 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default F16 - a good experience

On 12/30/2011 07:00 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 12/30/2011 08:51 AM, Patrick Lists wrote:

Luckily the frippery extensions and some other good stuff on
extensions.gnome.org allow me to mimick GNOME2 pretty well.


Doesn't it bother anybody else here that many people have to use a bunch
of third-party extensions and mimic the way Gnome 2 worked just to make
Gnome 3 usable? Shouldn't Gnome 3 be easy for the average user right out
of the box? Am I the only person here who thinks there's something wrong
here?

No you aren't.


Of course, I don't use Gnome any more, and the above is why, so
you might not think I'm being objective here.

I went the same route.


Still, it makes me wonder.

I wonder what Red Hat will do with it in RHEL?
In the shape Gnome 3 is currently in Fedora (comprising Fedora 16), it
doesn't have any future in the commercial world, IMO.


Ralf

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Old 12-30-2011, 06:59 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default F16 - a good experience

On 12/30/2011 10:42 AM, Pete Travis wrote:

But! Have you looked at extensions.gnome.org <http://extensions.gnome.org>?


No. As I've said here several times, when I found out what Gnome 3 was
going to be like I migrated to XFCE and have no desire to go back again.
As such, I'm on the outside looking in when it comes to Gnome and only
know what I read about it here. I'm not trying to put Gnome 3 down, or
get other people to stop using it unless they really don't like it
because that would be contrary to the freedom of choice that's supposed
to be one of the most important things in Linux.


Yes, clever programmers wrote extensions to Gnome 2, and many people
used them. On the other hand, most people didn't, and found that it
worked for them just fine, out of the box. With Gnome 3, however, many
of the functions that people had come to depend on (Such as having the
panel at the bottom of the screen instead of the top to take a simple
example.) have been removed from Gnome itself forcing large numbers of
users to choose between third-party extensions (that may stop working at
any time because of an update to Gnome) or completely relearning how to
use their system and changing habits that are in many cases years old.


I don't mind changing to something newer, even if it means changing my
work habits, if I can see a profit to it. If I didn't, I'd still be
using punched cards and a typewriter with fan-fold paper, as I did when
I first used a computer. But, I'm not the type to change things simply
for the sake of change. I don't say, as some do, "It's new, so it must
be better," any more than I say, "It's old and I'm used to it and I'm
going to keep things like that forever." I'm willing to change, but I
need to see a benefit from it and, for me at least, the changes needed
to use Gnome 3 just aren't there.


Sorry for going off so far like this, but once I got started, I realized
that there was a good amount that needed to be said to make my position
clear. I haven't done any programming in well over a decade, and I'm
retired now anyway, but I do tend to spend a fair amount of time
thinking about things like this and every now and then I feel the need
to share my conclusions with others.


If you're one of those who's happy with Gnome 3, I'm glad for you; if
not, ask yourself it it's worth the time and effort you'd need to get it
working the way you want. If so, have at it; if not, consider migrating
to a different DE. In either case, I hope you all have a Happy New Year.

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Old 12-30-2011, 07:02 PM
夜神 岩男
 
Default F16 - a good experience

On 12/31/2011 03:25 AM, Roger K. Wells wrote:

On 12/30/2011 01:00 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 12/30/2011 08:51 AM, Patrick Lists wrote:

Luckily the frippery extensions and some other good stuff on
extensions.gnome.org allow me to mimick GNOME2 pretty well.



+1

Doesn't it bother anybody else here that many people have to use a
bunch of third-party extensions and mimic the way Gnome 2 worked just
to make Gnome 3 usable? Shouldn't Gnome 3 be easy for the average user
right out of the box? Am I the only person here who thinks there's
something wrong here? Of course, I don't use Gnome any more, and the
above is why, so you might not think I'm being objective here. Still,
it makes me wonder.


I think there is significant investment from some quarters in the
concept that is Gnome3. And it reminds me of the Turkish proverb in
someone's .sig: (Sorry, the name escapes me now who it belongs to...)
"No matter how far you've gone down the road, turn back."

That's just a joke... but seriously...

The KDE spin stats are interesting, as are the XFCE ones.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:15 PM
Antonio Olivares
 
Default F16 - a good experience

> > Still, it makes me wonder.
> I wonder what Red Hat will do with it in RHEL?
> In the shape Gnome 3 is currently in Fedora (comprising
> Fedora 16), it doesn't have any future in the commercial
> world, IMO.
>
> Ralf
>
> -- users mailing list

The future is always uncertain. How many devices(tablets) ares supported nicely by Gnome 3š interface? Is Red Hat'š attention now away from the desktop (traditional Gnome 2) to Gnome 3 and target the Tablets and small devices like phones?

I want to agree with your opionion, but we actually can't write off anything out there, some folks tell me that M$ dismissed Android before and now it trails Android big time , however, it(M$) still makes $$$ for every android device sold and the patent cr*p that they have many manufacturers'numbers that they don't really lose A friend that has critized me through the years, now has a phone with android on it. I told him you are using Linux, he still denies it. He says it is Googles baby, and I told him that they are using Linux kernel.

My $0.02

Regards,


Antonio

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Old 12-30-2011, 10:25 PM
Pete Travis
 
Default F16 - a good experience

On Dec 30, 2011 12:59 PM, "Joe Zeff" <joe@zeff.us> wrote:

>

> On 12/30/2011 10:42 AM, Pete Travis wrote:

>>

>> But! Have you looked at extensions.gnome.org <http://extensions.gnome.org>?

>

>

> No. *

fnord (I like that one!)


Please, humor me, try it.* Log into a gnome session, pop open a few windows, and point Firefox at http://extensions.gnome.org .* I'm using an alt tab modification and a workspace labeler.* I will make no claim that you can find an acceptable configuration, or that you even want to, but your reply suggests I didn't clearly communicate the concept of extensible behavior sets (my words).*




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Old 12-30-2011, 11:03 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default F16 - a good experience

On 12/30/2011 03:25 PM, Pete Travis wrote:

your reply suggests I didn't clearly communicate the concept of
extensible behavior sets (my words).


I understand what you're getting at. What you don't seem to understand
is that I've only logged into the Gnome Shell by accident, I didn't like
what I saw and the only thing I was interested in was getting out of it
again as fast as I could. I don't like it, I don't want to use it and,
when I upgrade my computer and move to a 64-bit install, I won't have it
installed, except for those bits and pieces used by programs I want.
I'm not forcing you to try XFCE if you don't want to; why do you insist
that I try Gnome 3 after I've said that I don't want to use it?

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Old 12-31-2011, 12:55 AM
Michael Schwendt
 
Default F16 - a good experience

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:10:37 +0100, PVDM (paul) wrote:

> Installation was fine, also extra installed packages via rpmfusion OK.
> However 2 remarks.
> - upgrade from F14 to F16 seems to work but is not perfekt in cleaning up
> old packages (I think this is not an intended upgrade path, but anyway)

It's normal that certain types of retired/obsolete packages are not
removed automatically. You need to erase them yourself (or roll your
own packages for software that still exists upstream). There is no
global garbage collector meta package in Fedora, which would remove
such packages. But there are tools like "package-cleanup" from yum-utils,
which you can use to find --orphans, or "yum list extras".

> - selecting of test-updates is not flawless, there are some package
> dependency issues I think, e.g. in gcc and perl-ExtsUtils-MakeMaker, so i
> suggest don't use

Bad idea.

Ignoring updates-testing bears a risk that an update is declared stable,
because nobody is aware of the dependency issues (and the automated check
run by AutoQA is both easy to ignore and not reports false positives,
too).

Figure out the reason for the issues and report that in bugzilla or
directly in the Fedora Updates System "bodhi".
http://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates
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