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Old 12-23-2011, 12:34 AM
Joel Rees
 
Default Clean Installs are Remarkable

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Fedora User <fedoradch@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Dec 2011 09:04:00 +0900
> Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I generally don't do install from DVD because there will always be the
>> first yum update after the install, to kill a bit of time. I use the
>
> Actually, you can enable the update repo with the dvd install. The
> installation will then proceed from the media where possible and yum
> when necessary. Thus the newly installed Fedora is already updated.

Well, now that you mention it, I think that's the default these days.
It's been so long since I installed from DVD, I'd forgotten.

However, on a 1M ADSL connection, downloading the netinstall saves a
lot of download time. That'll be important for people whose ISPs are
bandwidth-capped, too.
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Old 12-23-2011, 03:54 AM
"Roelof "Ben" Kusters"
 
Default Clean Installs are Remarkable

However, on a 1M ADSL connection, downloading the netinstall saves a
lot of download time. That'll be important for people whose ISPs are
bandwidth-capped, too.


I don't know where you're at. I'm in Thailand and here 7MBit ADSL is the
cheapest available broadband package. Dialup is available too, still, but
rarely used... I was under the impression that Thailand, not directly on
the fiber network, had relatively slow and expensive Internet. Are there
places where it's worse? -> obviously.
Meanwhile, check the Fedora website; there are many places where you can
get a clean install dvd for free, or nearly free. I supply the whole of
Thailand; which isn't that much. :P


I never upgrade. I must be stupid, but I prefer clean installs. Including
the download, I'm usually done in about 6 hours.

2 hours download
30 mins clean install
30 mins update
3 hours tweaking and fiddling till it works; installing other things.

If it's not done by then, I usually go do something else, and install the
remaining stuff when I find out that I need it.



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Old 12-23-2011, 10:08 AM
Emilio Lopez
 
Default Clean Installs are Remarkable

> I never upgrade. I must be stupid, but I prefer clean installs. Including
> the download, I'm usually done in about 6 hours.

You are not alone, I prefer clean install too. Last time, I just spend
2hours using net-install cd, (cd download & burn excluded)

Emilio.
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Old 12-23-2011, 10:29 AM
Reindl Harald
 
Default Clean Installs are Remarkable

On 23.12.2011 02:28, Joel Rees wrote:
>> what the hell takes 44 hours?
>
> about 12 hours download

boah that is creeping

> about 2 hours in busy-cursor preparing this and preparing that

no ida waht this is and why it takes so long on your machine

> about 4 hours in checking dependencies

your machine is bad

> about 12 hours for the install
> about 12 hours for the cleanup

you machine is worst
even in 2006 on my old notebook a dist-upgrade wa doe in a few hours completly

> Probably would be somewhat faster if I had more than 768M RAM.

no this does not matter

02-12-2011 22:48:09 started master
02-12-2011 22:54:56 master finished

this was a virtial machone with 600 MB RAM


> LVM fragmentation may be slowing things down.

yes, surely your disks are greeping

> Speaking of LVM fragmentation, there's another
> reason it may be reasonable to just do a fresh install.

hm - my first notebook went from FC5 to F13 every dist-upgrade
until the machine decided to die

> Sempron 2600 (1.7GHz, single processor) since you ask.

should not be the problem

most of my virtual machines are limitet to something like that

>> on mobile-internet maybe
> 1M ADSL. Can't afford to go optical.

mobile internet would be faster :-)

here in vienna i had 16M cable-internet years ago
1M is really a bad joke these days


>>> But I'm sure you didn't have 3,450 packages in you virtual machines.
>>
>> no 1,7134 - do not forget the devel-stuff
> 17,134 packages? And I thought I had too much in this machine.

uuhm something got wrong here
1,734 packages

on the workstations the same, they do not have
devel-packages but desktop-stuff

however, 8 GB is the maximum used space for / an oll machines
my co-developer has 3,000 packages on his notebook (x86_64 and
way too much i686 crap) and a dist-upgrades takes only few
hours

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Old 12-23-2011, 11:21 AM
Patrick O'Callaghan
 
Default Clean Installs are Remarkable

On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 11:54 +0700, Roelof "Ben" Kusters wrote:
> I'm in Thailand and here 7MBit ADSL is the
> cheapest available broadband package. Dialup is available too, still,
> but
> rarely used... I was under the impression that Thailand, not directly
> on
> the fiber network, had relatively slow and expensive Internet. Are
> there
> places where it's worse? -> obviously.

I would kill for 7Mbps ADSL :-) Here in Venezuela the standard is 1Mbps.
You can get 2Mbps but it'll cost 3 times as much. This must be the only
place on Earth where cost is a superlinear function of b/w.

poc

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Old 12-23-2011, 03:48 PM
mike cloaked
 
Default Clean Installs are Remarkable

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 1:34 AM, Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Fedora User <fedoradch@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Dec 2011 09:04:00 +0900
>> Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I generally don't do install from DVD because there will always be the
>>> first yum update after the install, to kill a bit of time. I use the
>>
>> Actually, you can enable the update repo with the dvd install. The
>> installation will then proceed from the media where possible and yum
>> when necessary. Thus the newly installed Fedora is already updated.
>
> Well, now that you mention it, I think that's the default these days.
> It's been so long since I installed from DVD, I'd forgotten.
>
> However, on a 1M ADSL connection, downloading the netinstall saves a
> lot of download time. That'll be important for people whose ISPs are
> bandwidth-capped, too.

These considerations work for a one-off install - however if you
possess 6 or 8 or 10 machines all of which will be moved to the newer
system then downloading all the packages each time on each machine no
longer makes sense - what I have done in the past a number of times is
to download and install on the first machine - and then set up
mock-pungi to build a new DVD install iso using all fully updated
packages - that way the next machine "upgrade" is external-network
independent for a clean install using the up to date DVD install iso,
and once the install is complete you already have a near fully up to
date system with only a few packages to update from the repos. If I
then do further installs more than a few weeks after the rebuilt iso
file then I will build again to create more up to date "spin"..... yes
it does mean a learning curve to know how to do a "re-spin" build. But
once that is set up then re-running it is simplicity itself.

So all in all the approach that optimises the system upgrades does
depend on how many machines are involved - having a fully up to date
DVD iso for clean installs is valuable when "upgrading" say half a
dozen systems - doing them all as yum upgrades will not only involve
time but also multiple sets of file downloads - if you have a fast and
unlimited broadband connection perhaps you don't care how much data
you download - nut not everyone is in that lucky position! Using this
approach can save time "overall" across the collection of machines
needing to be upgraded.

Just another consideration to add to the way people plan these things.

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Old 12-23-2011, 05:27 PM
Thomas Cameron
 
Default Clean Installs are Remarkable

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 12/21/2011 09:06 PM, Fedora User wrote:
> I cannot believe that we are at F16. I clearly recall RH9 to FC-1.
> But I digress. I know that others have said this in the past. I
> just thought that I would reinforce the notion that clean installs
> remove a large number of annoying problems that persist through
> upgrades. Moreover, it is refreshing to start with a clean desktop;
> something that has become a palette for the way we think and do
> things.
>
> It has been awhile and I was unaware of the many advances that
> developers have made in installation. It has never been this easy,
> intuitive and fast.
>
> I was in a Walgreens the other day and picked up a bunch of Sony
> DVD's for 40 cents each. There was a time when burning a DVD
> through Linux was a considerable challenge. Now it is routine ---
> and cheap. The perfect excuse for backing up the accumulated bytes;
> It makes you think what you really want to retain. Then wiping the
> HD clean.

I probably do things a bit differently from most. I mount /home off an
NFS server (in my case, a RHEL 5 machine). I have several kickstart
definitions available, and in %post I create my user account and
define my mount for /home.

For me, setting up a clean install is trivial, and I wouldn't do it
any other way. It might take a couple of tries to get the kickstart
Just Right(TM), but it's well worth it. If I need to run RHEL 5, I
kickstart it - same home directory. If I need RHEL 6, same story, as
is Fedora.

I have done preupgrade a number of times and it's never been as easy
and clean as just nuking my box and doing a fresh install. Preupgrade
has generally gone well enough, but since I go through distros like
some people go through soft drinks, I find it infinitely easier to
just run "dmesg > /dev/sda; sync; echo b > /proc/sysrq-trigger" and
I'm up with a new install in ~ 15-20 minutes with updates.

Thomas
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Old 12-23-2011, 07:28 PM
Robert Moskowitz
 
Default Clean Installs are Remarkable

On 12/21/2011 10:06 PM, Fedora User wrote:

I cannot believe that we are at F16. I clearly recall RH9 to FC-1. But I
digress. I know that others have said this in the past. I just thought
that I would reinforce the notion that clean installs remove a large
number of annoying problems that persist through upgrades. Moreover, it
is refreshing to start with a clean desktop; something that has become
a palette for the way we think and do things.

It has been awhile and I was unaware of the many advances that
developers have made in installation. It has never been this easy,
intuitive and fast.

I was in a Walgreens the other day and picked up a bunch of Sony DVD's
for 40 cents each. There was a time when burning a DVD through Linux
was a considerable challenge. Now it is routine --- and cheap. The
perfect excuse for backing up the accumulated bytes; It makes you think
what you really want to retain. Then wiping the HD clean.


I have a 2Tb dirve on a backup server that I 'regularly' rsync my ~/data
stuff to. Considering that I have 20Gb to move, that would be a lot of
DVD swapping.


But to each their own. Just remember to backup. I lost my daily backup
drive a couple weeks ago, but had my weekly drive (that is kept in a
firebox and taken out and mounted for the backup 'each' sunday) so
layers upon layers does it.



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Old 12-23-2011, 07:33 PM
Robert Moskowitz
 
Default Clean Installs are Remarkable

On 12/21/2011 10:28 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 12/21/2011 07:06 PM, Fedora User wrote:

It has been awhile and I was unaware of the many advances that
developers have made in installation. It has never been this easy,
intuitive and fast.


That's good to know. Even if I manage to get this desktop cleaned up
and working, I'm considering saving up enough money to upgrade to a
new mobo. (This one's been working for about eight years, now, and is
showing its limitations.) When I do, there's no reason not to get one
with enough RAM to need a 64 bit system, meaning, of course, a clean
install. Hearing how easy it is is very good news.


I just went from a 6 year old HP nc2400 duo core to a new Lenovo x120e
single core. 2Gb mem - 4Gb and 60Gb disk to 320Gb. I would recommend a
duo core. I THINK I can notice the difference even though supposedly
the Lenovo single == the HP duo in bogomips.


I ALWAYS did a clean install between versions. rsync ~/. to a backup
drive install, the move things back (like ~/.ssh !).


And each time customizations I did in /etc were different so why bother
to try and keep them around. Just make sure to maintain a list of
everything you installed so you do not forget anything! A common
problem with me.



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Old 12-23-2011, 07:37 PM
Robert Moskowitz
 
Default Clean Installs are Remarkable

On 12/22/2011 01:24 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 12/22/2011 02:31 AM, mike cloaked wrote:

the almost inevitable
problems that have come from the upgrade of an older system.


And I've been doing upgrades for years and this is the first time I've
ever had the slightest bit of trouble. What "almost inevitable
problems" are you referring to?


Some customization you made that hangs around and interferes with the
way things work now...



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