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Tim 12-04-2011 01:05 AM

The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
 
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 19:21 -0700, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
> Smartphones are starting to displace even desktop computers.... and
> do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.)
> that were once solely the domain of PCs.

Though, only if you are doing *BASIC* email. Just try something more
complicated, and you'll soon find using a midget gadget just isn't going
to cut the mustard. Scads of mail, threaded properly, etc. There just
isn't the screen real estate, to start with. Then try writing a long
email without a keyboard.

Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like that,
such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task. I've sat next to
them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two sentences is
a major chore.

Then you watch people spinning them around, to read something less
awkwardly in the other aspect. Zooming in and panning about to read
something (and the effect is like trying to read a magazine through a
keyhole).

> Tablets are quickly displacing laptops in the business world. The main
> barrier is that they are more difficult to use for producing
> information than PCs at the moment. They are equally as good for those
> who are primarily consumers of information. Once tablet manufacturers
> actually decide to deal with issues around printing and getting more
> effective input methods in place, tablet acceptance will likely take
> off like a shot.

Again, I've watched businessmen playing with their pads. And you're
right that they're reasonable for a read-only device (big enough screen,
less wieldy to carry around than a laptop and accessories), but nasty
for typing anything more than about a sentence or two.

As far as coming up with effective input method, there is little else
than a proper keyboard for doing extensive typing. And I mean something
with physical buttons, that you can feel move. Not just drawing a
keyboard on the screen.

Touchscreens are all very well for poking at large objects, but not very
good for fine detail. While the mouse is hideous, it still tends to be
the most versatile.

> PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be greatly
> impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the
> sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well
> in this coming wave...

That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a
tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa. Yet, that
see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current
Gnome debacle). Change doesn't necessarily mean progress.

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Antonio Olivares 12-04-2011 01:47 AM

The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
 
> To some Fedora 3 is a new technology , to others it is a

$ sed -i 's|Fedora 3|Gnome 3|g' "To some Fedora 3 is a new technology , to others it is a"

Right?

Fedora 3 was released long time ago, If I remember correctly Nov 2004 :)

> road to
> madness. But one can hardly completely blame Fedora. It is
> the creation
> the Gnome developers who are what some of us think is the
> wrong track as
> Linus thinks it is.
> --

Regards,

Antonio
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Craig White 12-04-2011 03:25 AM

The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
 
On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 12:35 +1030, Tim wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 19:21 -0700, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
> > Smartphones are starting to displace even desktop computers.... and
> > do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.)
> > that were once solely the domain of PCs.
>
> Though, only if you are doing *BASIC* email. Just try something more
> complicated, and you'll soon find using a midget gadget just isn't going
> to cut the mustard. Scads of mail, threaded properly, etc. There just
> isn't the screen real estate, to start with. Then try writing a long
> email without a keyboard.
----
Don't assume that input options remain static or aren't being improved
upon continually. For example, Ice Cream Sandwich implements continuous
speech processing including punctuation which represents a real option
for many. Likewise, there are 'swipe' type input keyboards which with
some practice, are usable and reasonable for character entry. Don't
forget that usage of a QWERTY keyboard actual required learning and
practice and there are still a large amount of users who simply use 1 or
2 finger input having never learned to touch type anyway.

Then there are extremely portable bluetooth keyboards that can fold up
into your pockets... all sorts of options.
---

> Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like that,
> such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task. I've sat next to
> them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two sentences is
> a major chore.
----
most of the people using Blackberry's are not necessarily tech savvy -
they're somewhat inferior devices. Besides, they have become irrelevant
in the marketplace, hemorrhaging money to the point where I wonder if
they won't be out of business in 3 years.
----
> > Tablets are quickly displacing laptops in the business world. The main
> > barrier is that they are more difficult to use for producing
> > information than PCs at the moment. They are equally as good for those
> > who are primarily consumers of information. Once tablet manufacturers
> > actually decide to deal with issues around printing and getting more
> > effective input methods in place, tablet acceptance will likely take
> > off like a shot.
>
> Again, I've watched businessmen playing with their pads. And you're
> right that they're reasonable for a read-only device (big enough screen,
> less wieldy to carry around than a laptop and accessories), but nasty
> for typing anything more than about a sentence or two.
>
> As far as coming up with effective input method, there is little else
> than a proper keyboard for doing extensive typing. And I mean something
> with physical buttons, that you can feel move. Not just drawing a
> keyboard on the screen.
----
Now that you're talking about tablets, there's things like Asus
Transformer which has a keyboard or the various keyboard 'cases' for
iPad so obviously there are other methods - apparently none of which you
use. On screen keyboards are reasonable for the younger generation and
reasonable for short messaging for most and a plethora of options exist
for extended usage.

By the way, I watched my daughter (33 y/o) typing on her HTC Incredible
today and she was lightning quick - it can be done... just takes
practice. Myself, I'm not so quick and I tend to go to voice entry for
lengthy stuff.
----
> Touchscreens are all very well for poking at large objects, but not very
> good for fine detail. While the mouse is hideous, it still tends to be
> the most versatile.
----
True - I don't do 'fine' detail on my telephone but 'pinch to zoom'
allows you to access magnifications where even a fat finger can be like
a needle in many instances.
----
> > PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be greatly
> > impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the
> > sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well
> > in this coming wave...
>
> That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a
> tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa. Yet, that
> see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current
> Gnome debacle). Change doesn't necessarily mean progress.
----
It seems obvious to me that there are 2 schools of thought here and
yours is shared by a few. The other school seems to think that the
desktop computer is just one of the various forms of computing and that
other forms will include small form factors (perhaps like Apple's 3.5"
diagonal iPhone) to relatively small 4-5" to 7-8" and larger.

Perhaps these small form factors will drop into a laptop type shell
(like the Motorola Atrix), wirelessly connect to keyboard, mouse and
display when in an home or office environment, etc.

Now I don't know how things are progressing in your neck of the woods in
Australia but in America, the various tablets are jumping off the
shelves like hotcakes. Coming on the heels of the successes of the
netbooks indicates that the public wants extremely portable, relatively
inexpensive computing devices even if it only does e-mail/web browsing
and it's not just Gnome who have picked up on the fact that the future
of computing devices is up for grabs. One only need look at the Windows
8 preview and see their Windows Phone 'tiles' interface as the primary
UI/launcher to see that they are not alone with a redesign of their UI
with an eye to all possible form factors.

Craig


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"Lars E. Pettersson" 12-04-2011 08:40 AM

The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
 
On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
> Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
> GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while

If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get
something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the
Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.

Lars
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"Lars E. Pettersson" 12-04-2011 08:40 AM

The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
 
On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
> Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
> GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while

If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get
something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the
Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.

Lars
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Aaron Konstam 12-04-2011 01:34 PM

The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
 
On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 10:40 +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
> On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
> > Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
> > GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while
>
> If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get
> something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the
> Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.

Where does one find System info? I can't find it.

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Alan Cox 12-04-2011 01:42 PM

The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
 
O> Though, only if you are doing *BASIC* email. Just try something more
> complicated, and you'll soon find using a midget gadget just isn't going
> to cut the mustard. Scads of mail, threaded properly, etc. There just
> isn't the screen real estate, to start with. Then try writing a long
> email without a keyboard.

I read much of my email these days on my Android phone with K9. I save
the stuff worth replying to and reply locally. It means reading email can
be done in what was otherwise dead times.

For the typical end user with webmail there isn't really much difference
between gmail on a phone and gmail on the web.

> Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like that,
> such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task. I've sat next to
> them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two sentences is
> a major chore.

You need to watch a 14 year old not a business-drone. The kids learned
this stuff from a young age and their wpm on a phone is scary.

> Then you watch people spinning them around, to read something less
> awkwardly in the other aspect. Zooming in and panning about to read
> something (and the effect is like trying to read a magazine through a
> keyhole).

Definitely. I do read books on the phone when travelling but they need to
be appropriately formatted and some stuff like magazine type material
simply doesn't work.

> That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a
> tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa. Yet, that
> see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current
> Gnome debacle). Change doesn't necessarily mean progress.

Agreed 100%. In fact one of the problems outstanding is how the UI
handles the situation where you do the following

Receive an email on the phone, glance at it, begin replying, realise you
need to look at the attached presentation, flick the phone display onto
your 40" LED 1080p television and carry on working that way.

Simply expanding the existing display and way of working isn't
necessarily the sane way to do it. And it actually goes beyond that,
because if you've got local CPU power you really want your environment to
be a virtual machine that can flip seamlessly onto the bigger processor
connected to the TV.

Alan
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Mike Chambers 12-04-2011 02:58 PM

The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
 
On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 08:34 -0600, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 10:40 +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
> > On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
> > > Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
> > > GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while
> >
> > If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get
> > something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the
> > Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.
>
> Where does one find System info? I can't find it.

Right top corner, click on your username and go to System Settings.
Scroll to the very bottom and should see it under System.


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"Lars E. Pettersson" 12-04-2011 03:05 PM

The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
 
On 12/04/2011 03:34 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> Where does one find System info? I can't find it.

Left click on your name in the upper right corner of the screen.
Chose 'Systems Settings'
Chose 'System Info'
Chose 'Graphics'
There you have a toggle for 'Forced Fallback Mode'

To add things to the panels, press and hold Alt, and then right click.

It seem to be quite close to what you get in Gnome2.

Lars
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Fernando Cassia 12-04-2011 05:19 PM

The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
 
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 22:50, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
> this is nonsense
>
> the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone which is permanently online, but this does not mean that all these people are only using a smartphone or tab which will not happen
> not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years

Oh really? think again, think internet-connected TVs running Android
or some other OS.

http://www.geniatech.com/pa/android-tv.asp

Hes right about the declining of relevance of Windows, and by
extension, the windows API at the app level, too.

FC

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