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Old 12-04-2011, 09:44 PM
Scott Doty
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On 12/04/2011 01:40 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
> On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
>> Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
>> GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while
> If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get
> something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the
> Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.
>
> Lars

But this resembles an _unconfigured_ gnome2 installation -- all of the
buttons, drawers, and widgets from Gnome 2's gnome-panel are lost.

I really wish people would stop trying to put lipstick on the fallback
mode -- just tell folks to move to kde, or xfce.

-Scott

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Old 12-04-2011, 11:21 PM
Alan Cox
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

> [1]Jerry Pournelle, who (along with Larry Niven) predicted pocket
> computers in *The Mote In God's Eye,* and *The Gripping Hand,* is
> thrilled to see his prediction come true so soon.

In 1974... the handheld calculator already being with us in 1967 and
Moores law already stated. Star Trek was already waving tricorders around
and tricorders appear to show cloud computing ideas too.

Try 'Feeling of Power' - Asimov 1958 (which also predicts losing the
ability to do maths because of having a pocket calculator). I'm not even
sure it's the first.

And of course Dynabook was described in 1968 by Alan Kay as a real
research vision. His original design btw was 12" x 9" so large pocket
needed but very much a tablet style although he included a keyboard.

Whats really interesting is what else the Parc work predicted in 1980 as
the result of such devices and the stuff they were playing with then but
unable to do within size and budget due to technology. My favourite quote
from the CC article on it being

"Television in particular would be in for trouble - who's going to watch
poor television programs if they can link up with all the other kids on
the block for a game of really super Startrek or Startrader"

Didn't quite call Warcraft correctly but not far off 8)

Alan
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:42 PM
Marko Vojinovic
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Sunday 04 December 2011 12:21:44 Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 12/04/2011 11:26 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> > Gnome3 provides a desktop for that vast majority of ignorant people who
> > want a zero-slope learning curve between the smartphone, TV, computer,
> > car and microwave oven.
>
> "Anything
> worth using has a learning curve."
>
> The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're not
> going to get it. Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how
> to use.

I agree with you completely, but the Gnome devs are apparently pushing to
prove us wrong... :-)

However, as a happy KDE user I don't have to worry about the Gnome devs. Btw,
you reminded me of that common saying, "build a system that even an idiot can
use, and only idiots will use it", which may give people a bit of perspective
on the route Gnome is taking... ;-)

Best, :-)
Marko





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Old 12-05-2011, 01:34 AM
Bill Davidsen
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

Craig White wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:37 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
>> On 12/03/2011 05:31 AM, Craig White wrote:
>>> As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to
>>> see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like
>>> impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I
>>> want that toy.
>>
>> Finally, someone talking sense!
>>
>> Yes, Gnome 3 is little more than a toy at this point. But since you've
>> previously revealed that you use KDE, you don't realize how much of a
>> toy it is. You have no clue what we are talking about.
> ----
> you are assuming that I didn't use Gnome 3 for a day after I installed
> F16 but since I didn't much care for Gnome 2, the fact that I didn't
> much care for Gnome 3 seemed logical.
>
I'm not sure how that follows, KDE is more like GNOME2 than is GNOME3. The GNOME
releases are similar only at the acronym level.

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Old 12-05-2011, 01:43 AM
Bill Davidsen
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

Alan Cox wrote:
> I've been playing with 3.2 a bit today an F16.
>
[...snip...]

> I still think the biggest mistake was calling it "Gnome". It's
> something quite different and they'd have upset a lot less people if
> they'd not tried to pretend it was the same experience as Gnome.
>
That has to rank among the top ten astute things you have said (in a long
history of getting to the heart of a problem). If you use the name you get the
expectations for free. Somewhat like Ford jacking up the Explorer name and
replacing an SUV with a crossover instead of coining a new name for their AWD
station wagon.

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Old 12-05-2011, 01:54 AM
Bill Davidsen
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 12/03/2011 02:12 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
>> Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices can't run modern PC
>> style software. That will change.
>
> Do you really think that an accountant will ever want to fill out a
> spreadsheet on a tablet, even with a keyboard, if a desktop or laptop's
> available? I know a number of authors[1][2] and I can't imagine even
> one of them willing to work without a proper keyboard. For that matter,
> I've completed three novels for NaNoWriMo and have three more stuck at
> about 60K words, and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to do that much
> writing with only an on-screen keyboard.
>
> [1]Not writers; people who earn their living from their writing.
> [2]Names available on request, as I'm not interested in name dropping
> for its own sake.

I did one book for NaNoWriMo, although the length to "complete" it was about
half of what it reached when really done. I built a system just for writing,
with a big HDTV as monitor so I could have the timeline tool and word processor
on the screen, and went through three keyboards and two chairs before I got the
perfect setup. Haven't done one in a few years, last year my wife was dying and
I was caretaker 7x24, this year I'm about 60k into a book which insisted on
being written before the one I sat down to write.

There will never be a single right size, portability vs. display size thing, and
as people hit 40 they realize that fonts they *can* read are no longer ones they
*want to* read.

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the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:40 AM
Craig White
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 21:34 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> Craig White wrote:
> > On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:37 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
> >> On 12/03/2011 05:31 AM, Craig White wrote:
> >>> As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to
> >>> see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like
> >>> impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I
> >>> want that toy.
> >>
> >> Finally, someone talking sense!
> >>
> >> Yes, Gnome 3 is little more than a toy at this point. But since you've
> >> previously revealed that you use KDE, you don't realize how much of a
> >> toy it is. You have no clue what we are talking about.
> > ----
> > you are assuming that I didn't use Gnome 3 for a day after I installed
> > F16 but since I didn't much care for Gnome 2, the fact that I didn't
> > much care for Gnome 3 seemed logical.
> >
> I'm not sure how that follows, KDE is more like GNOME2 than is GNOME3. The GNOME
> releases are similar only at the acronym level.
----
I see - in your opinion, software developers are not actually free to
re-imagine what their software is/does or is this particular lack of
inability only extended to Gnome developers?

Craig


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Old 12-05-2011, 03:03 AM
Craig White
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Mon, 2011-12-05 at 08:55 +1030, Tim wrote:

> > Now I don't know how things are progressing in your neck of the woods in
> > Australia but in America, the various tablets are jumping off the
> > shelves like hotcakes. Coming on the heels of the successes of the
> > netbooks indicates that the public wants extremely portable, relatively
> > inexpensive computing devices even if it only does e-mail/web browsing
> > and it's not just Gnome who have picked up on the fact that the future
> > of computing devices is up for grabs. One only need look at the Windows
> > 8 preview and see their Windows Phone 'tiles' interface as the primary
> > UI/launcher to see that they are not alone with a redesign of their UI
> > with an eye to all possible form factors.
>
> The trouble is that they (various "theys"), don't seem to be designing
> UIs to fit different form factors. They're trying to fit one UI onto
> all the devices.
>
> Yes, such gadgets are becoming popular, here. But they're still a
> specialist device, and hardly suitable replacements for a full computer.
----
the various devices you are describing 'they' are designing to are
indeed computers. Smaller form factors are indeed suitable replacements
for a full computer - but perhaps not for all purposes but maybe that's
a function of what's possibly with today's technology.

That doesn't preclude anyone from choosing to use the DE that suits
their needs and if it isn't Gnome, there are other choices.

Craig


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Old 12-05-2011, 06:11 AM
Misha Shnurapet
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

03.12.2011, 13:48, "Sam Varshavchik" <mrsam@courier-mta.com>:
> *It's not that stuff has merely changed. It's that the stuff has changed,
> *major parts of existing functionality were removed without having any
> *functional replacements

There is no arguing that the new GNOME 3 is a significant change. But what you had with GNOME 2 was a result of about a decade of development. You want the same user experience, the same functionality today while it takes months to port all the stuff that you may not even know is to stay in GNOME. I wonder, when the GNOME 2 came out, was it something largely accepted.

> *and every time someone points this out, they're
> *told that they're too stupid to know what's good for them, and this is The
> *Better Way.

I think you're exaggerating. Noone from the GNOME project could have actually told you that.

> *Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget.

GNOME 3 is much more extensible than any other previous version of GNOME, it is made to receive many kinds of extensions AND IT WILL.

04.12.2011, 03:56, "Bill Davidsen" <davidsen@tmr.com>:
> And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video
> cards for visual cruft is not in the cards.

Old hardware receives the classic user experience in the form of fallback mode. But if you want the exact GNOME 2 with no option to compromise, the attitude you may receive may simply become your payback.

04.12.2011, 00:26, "Scott Doty" <scott@ponzo.net>:
> *...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when
> *its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_.

I absolutely undrestand that you like Linus. But don't you forget that Linus is a long time KDE user, and that's a different view on user interface and usability. We love GNOME for being GNOME unless switch DE easily and stop complaining. Knowing that Linus likes to troll both developers and users from time to time, it's funny to see the adherents of ye olde GNOME coming up with the quotes to support their point of view, especially when those are rather positive.

04.12.2011, 04:04, "Marko Vojinovic" <vvmarko@gmail.com>:
> It takes a certain personality profile to be able to
> *use Fedora successfully. Most notably the ability to embrace new technologies,
> *the ability to put up with occasional rough edges, and the ability to handle
> *steep learning curves.

That is, Fedora is the future now.

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Old 12-05-2011, 07:01 AM
Joe Zeff
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On 12/04/2011 06:54 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> There will never be a single right size, portability vs. display size thing, and
> as people hit 40 they realize that fonts they*can* read are no longer ones they
> *want to* read.

I'm 62, now, and I see much better than I did when I was 40, although I
still prefer the same fonts.
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