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Old 12-04-2011, 05:59 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

Am 04.12.2011 19:19, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 22:50, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
>> this is nonsense
>>
>> the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone which is permanently online, but this does not mean that all these people are only using a smartphone or tab which will not happen
>> not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years
>
> Oh really? think again, think internet-connected TVs running Android
> or some other OS.
>
> http://www.geniatech.com/pa/android-tv.asp
>
> He´s right about the declining of relevance of Windows, and by
> extension, the windows API at the app level, too.

did i say anything other?

what did you exactly not understand in "the percent does not matter"
all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and
powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now

and this is why it is wrong to design defaults only having
smartphones and tabs in mind - ther are people which do much
more with a computer and will ever be which can not be done
with any mobile device because you are missing the needed
performance and interfaces, not speaking from RAID etc.

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Old 12-04-2011, 06:26 PM
Marko Vojinovic
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Sunday 04 December 2011 19:59:38 Reindl Harald wrote:
> all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and
> powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now
>
> and this is why it is wrong to design defaults only having
> smartphones and tabs in mind - ther are people which do much
> more with a computer and will ever be which can not be done
> with any mobile device because you are missing the needed
> performance and interfaces, not speaking from RAID etc.

Noobs and people who only look at e-mail and surf the web will use Gnome3,
since it "looks the same" and "works the same" as their favorite smartphone.
Gnome3 provides a desktop for that vast majority of ignorant people who want a
zero-slope learning curve between the smartphone, TV, computer, car and
microwave oven.

Meanwhile, workstation powerusers will use KDE, and configure it inside out to
match their desired workflow. ;-)

And the world will be a happy place once again. :-D

Best, :-)
Marko


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Old 12-04-2011, 07:05 PM
Fernando Cassia
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 15:59, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
> what did you exactly not understand in "the percent does not matter"
> all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and
> powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now

The percentage DOES matter in terms of GROWTH and MIND SHARE.
Mobile devices and mouse-less, or keyboard-less devices will be where
growth will be, often at a fraction of the cost of a traditional
computer.

In other words, the ´new´ devices will grow and the traditional pc
environment will eventually stall.

If any OS decides to ´ignore´ this trend it will become a niche
market. An OS that is no longer talked about is often forgotten.
Remember IBM OS/2? It´s still for sale -and somewhat limited
development- under another brand at www.ecomstation.com. Will it grow?
hardly. Will anybody know about it 10 years from now? very unlikely.

That´s the reason why Linux cannot afford to ignore the new devices
and ´morphings´ of the computer to new aread, and why it must offer
UIs designed for these new devices and paradigms.

In fact, I worry that Canonical´s latest "get Ubuntu on TVs" might be
too late already.

Rest assured, nobody will be taking your XFCE and KDE desktops from
you, if you want to use them on a traditional PC.

But IMHO it´s desirable to see Linux moving into these new grounds.

Just my $0.02
FC
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:21 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On 12/04/2011 11:26 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> Gnome3 provides a desktop for that vast majority of ignorant people who want a
> zero-slope learning curve between the smartphone, TV, computer, car and
> microwave oven.

Friday night, I was talking with writer John DeChancie. He was
interested in turning one of his paintings into a cover for his latest
book, and I suggested that he look at Scribus, as it's FOSS and works
under Windows just as well as Linux. As it happened, one of the other
members of the conversation had used the program and said that it was
very capable, but had a generous learning curve. I replied, "Anything
worth using has a learning curve."

The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're not
going to get it. Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how
to use.
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:47 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On 12/04/2011 12:05 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> Rest assured, nobody will be taking your XFCE and KDE desktops from
> you, if you want to use them on a traditional PC.
>
> But IMHO it´s desirable to see Linux moving into these new grounds.

Exactly. I have no objection to seeing Linux move into the realm of the
tablet, the phone and the pocket computer;[1] I think it's a good thing.
I don't even object to creating a UI for a desktop that emulates that
of a tablet, for those who want it. What I, personally, object to is
making that emulation the default for a major DE and telling anybody who
complains that they'll just hafta learn to use it. I can't speak for
anybody else (except, in this case, my sister) but my (and her) reaction
to something like that is to say, "No I don't," while walking away from
whatever it is and finding something else that I like better.

I probably would have at least given Gnome 3 a try if the attitude of
the devs hadn't been so inflexible. When they said to the world, in
effect, "My way or the highway," my instant response was to find a
different DE (XFCE in my case) that allowed me to do things my way
instead of forcing me to do things the way the devs think the world
wants to do things.

YMMV, and if you're using Gnome 3 clearly does, which is fine with me.

[1]Jerry Pournelle, who (along with Larry Niven) predicted pocket
computers in *The Mote In God's Eye,* and *The Gripping Hand,* is
thrilled to see his prediction come true so soon.
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:49 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

Am 04.12.2011 21:05, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
> On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 15:59, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
>> what did you exactly not understand in "the percent does not matter"
>> all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and
>> powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now
>
> The percentage DOES matter in terms of GROWTH and MIND SHARE.
> Mobile devices and mouse-less, or keyboard-less devices will be where
> growth will be

you do NOT WANT to understand me

it does not matter in the context "we optimize all for the new
devices because a traditional pc is not cool enough"

where did i say any word that these devices sgould be ignored
or not supported as good as possible?

but it is dumb to make a desktop DEFAULT which ignores real
computers!

> often at a fraction of the cost of a traditional computer.

laughable, many of this new devices are at the same cost as
a traditional computer if you look at the real price and
not what your mobile providr pays for you

> In other words, the ´new´ devices will grow and the traditional pc
> environment will eventually stall.

so what....

> If any OS decides to ´ignore´ this trend it will become a niche
> market.

who spoke about ignore them?

make a useable desktop for classical computers where you
can switch to a mobile-view, but do not handle every device
like a mbolie OR YOU BECOME A NICHE

> That´s the reason why Linux cannot afford to ignore the new devices
> and ´morphings´ of the computer to new aread, and why it must offer
> UIs designed for these new devices and paradigms.

did i say anything against this?

the problem is that childish developers forget real devices

> In fact, I worry that Canonical´s latest "get Ubuntu on TVs" might be
> too late already.

nobody needs a crippled distribution which does not fit well
on a tv and not on a real computer

for such things were and are specialized distributions
much better and there is no need to cripple down desktop
distributions

> Rest assured, nobody will be taking your XFCE and KDE desktops from
> you, if you want to use them on a traditional PC.

hopefully that the other developers will not get infected by
this "all for the new coll play-devices"

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Old 12-04-2011, 08:42 PM
Fernando Cassia
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 17:49, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
> you do NOT WANT to understand me

YES I DO.

> but it is dumb to make a desktop DEFAULT which ignores real
> computers!

I get your point, you´re complaining about Gnome3 being the default. I
hear you, loud and clear, no need to shoot the messenger if you don´t
like someone´s opinions.

All this brouhaha would be moot if Fedora simply detected the kind of
device it´s being installed on and show a screen saying

"this looks like** a Tablet device, so we´ll default to a touch-based
interface, OK? [yes-no]"

Or "This looks like** a Desktop computer, we´ll be defaulting to XFCE.
Are you OK with that? [yes-no]"

Or "This is a laptop or netbook. Which desktop interface do you
prefer? [a] [b] [c] [d]".

So everyone is happy and there´s no ugly desktop forced down anybody´s throat.

FC
PS: While I wrote the above ** I couldn´t help smiling and thinking
about the infamouse Clippy and its "it looks like you´re writing a
letter..." ;-)

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Old 12-04-2011, 09:19 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On 12/04/2011 01:42 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> I get your point, you´re complaining about Gnome3 being the default. I
> hear you, loud and clear, no need to shoot the messenger if you don´t
> like someone´s opinions.

It looks to me as though he's not so much complaining about Gnome3 being
the default, as about the way Gnome3 looks to be designed for a tablet
with just a (very) grudging nod to the fact that most of its users are
using a desktop or laptop computer that doesn't have a touch screen.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:25 PM
Tim
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

Tim:
>> Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like
>> that, such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task. I've sat
>> next to them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two
>> sentences is a major chore.
>
Alan Cox:
> You need to watch a 14 year old not a business-drone. The kids learned
> this stuff from a young age and their wpm on a phone is scary.

Actually, this is where I see another problem. Kids seem to be quite
happy to jump through hoops, and do a variety of inconvenient things,
just to get it done. Myself, I consider that bad design.

I am a tech-head. I work in video production, and I'm surrounded by
things that I have to endlessly fiddle with to get the results. I need
that for its flexibility. I wouldn't suggest that the ordinary person,
who just wants to look at something, should have to go through the same
rigmarole.

I picked the businessmen as my example, because it's probably more
indicative of the general public. For one thing, they're expensive
toys, though are getting to the stage where kids do own them. But more
that I'd say there's more adults using these gadgets than kids. And, by
now, I think it's obvious to most that the great masses of people using
some sort of computing device are not brilliantly technically literate.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:25 PM
Tim
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

Craig White:
> Don't assume that input options remain static or aren't being improved
> upon continually. For example, Ice Cream Sandwich implements continuous
> speech processing including punctuation which represents a real option
> for many.

It's the first thing that springs to mind, as an easy solution. Until
you watch how businessmen use their gadgets, on the bus, at a cafe on
the street corner, in a meeting... Voice input has its uses, but lots
of limitations.

> Likewise, there are 'swipe' type input keyboards which with
> some practice, are usable and reasonable for character entry. Don't
> forget that usage of a QWERTY keyboard actual required learning and
> practice and there are still a large amount of users who simply use 1 or
> 2 finger input having never learned to touch type anyway.

Haven't heard of swipe keyboards, so I went and had a look. Argh, gawd,
bringing the fun and games of predictive text to all keyboards. It's
bad enough trying to decipher what some people try to say in plain
English, never mind when the computer has added further scrambling.

True enough that there's plenty of hunt and peck typists, and some of
them are fast. At least with a normal keyboard you can use normal
fingers. With mini keyboards, of any type, you're faced with using a
stick, or trying to get the corner of a fingernail to press the one key
that you want to press, and not four keys at the same time.

But, adding a keyboard to a tablet, is getting back to ye olde desktop
problem. A box, with this cabled to that, half a dozen times over
(keyboard, mouse, screen, printer, modem...), rat's nests are bad enough
on the desk, but haven't to lug it around and set it up with a portable
devices. :-(

Not to mention a grudging admission that such things are still
necessary, or vital.



> On screen keyboards are reasonable for the younger generation and
> reasonable for short messaging for most and a plethora of options exist
> for extended usage.

Sure, if you feel like bashing your fingertips into a solid piece of
glass... And being unable to touch type. They really are up there with
the rest of the unergonomic designs.

>> Touchscreens are all very well for poking at large objects, but not very
>> good for fine detail. While the mouse is hideous, it still tends to be
>> the most versatile.

> True - I don't do 'fine' detail on my telephone but 'pinch to zoom'
> allows you to access magnifications where even a fat finger can be like
> a needle in many instances.

I've watched my friend doing that. Just reading one small webpage, and
then clicking on the bits you needed to click on, involved lots of
zooming in and out, and panning around. Not at all convenient, nor
quick, and out of the question for people without manual dexterity, or
missing some digits.


>> That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a
>> tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa. Yet, that
>> see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current
>> Gnome debacle). Change doesn't necessarily mean progress.

> It seems obvious to me that there are 2 schools of thought here and
> yours is shared by a few. The other school seems to think that the
> desktop computer is just one of the various forms of computing and that
> other forms will include small form factors (perhaps like Apple's 3.5"
> diagonal iPhone) to relatively small 4-5" to 7-8" and larger.
>
> Perhaps these small form factors will drop into a laptop type shell
> (like the Motorola Atrix), wirelessly connect to keyboard, mouse and
> display when in an home or office environment, etc.

And, continue to use an inappropriate interface, instead of
transforming? Because the way things are going, it doesn't look
transforming is going to be the way. With desktop devices getting
portable device interfaces.

I see the value of portable devices, I see the value of being able to
develop for them on a desktop computer. I do not see that it's good
thing to destroy a good desktop model to force people into using an
inappropriate one on it, just to be consistent.

> Now I don't know how things are progressing in your neck of the woods in
> Australia but in America, the various tablets are jumping off the
> shelves like hotcakes. Coming on the heels of the successes of the
> netbooks indicates that the public wants extremely portable, relatively
> inexpensive computing devices even if it only does e-mail/web browsing
> and it's not just Gnome who have picked up on the fact that the future
> of computing devices is up for grabs. One only need look at the Windows
> 8 preview and see their Windows Phone 'tiles' interface as the primary
> UI/launcher to see that they are not alone with a redesign of their UI
> with an eye to all possible form factors.

The trouble is that they (various "theys"), don't seem to be designing
UIs to fit different form factors. They're trying to fit one UI onto
all the devices.

Yes, such gadgets are becoming popular, here. But they're still a
specialist device, and hardly suitable replacements for a full computer.

--
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Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
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