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Old 12-02-2011, 11:38 AM
Ed Greshko
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

I'm a long time KDE user and survivor of the move to KDE 4.

Thought some of you may be interested in the view point of Linus....

"Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is
starting to look almost usable.

Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell
setup and made available in the regular "system config" thing rather
than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that "clean
default", but make them easy to find and part of the standard install.

Or would that be too close to "Ok, we admit we were wong" and thus not
politically acceptable?"


https://plus.google.com/u/0/102150693225130002912/posts/WTLyn7dqYoR

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Old 12-03-2011, 12:38 AM
Craig White
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 20:38 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> I'm a long time KDE user and survivor of the move to KDE 4.
>
> Thought some of you may be interested in the view point of Linus....
>
> "Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is
> starting to look almost usable.
>
> Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell
> setup and made available in the regular "system config" thing rather
> than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that "clean
> default", but make them easy to find and part of the standard install.
----
Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
actually matters.

What I did see on the Ubuntu list was a reference to this...

http://www.webupd8.org/2011/10/things-to-tweak-after-installing-ubuntu.html

which I thought was a rather helpful page and wonder if someone has done
something similar for Fedora (though much of the Ubuntu tweaks are
suitable for Fedora). One of the things I like about Ubuntu is that
there are some resources out there that don't seem to exist for Fedora.

and as long as I am quoting & linking, I found this quote (attributable
to Paul Mauritz of VMWare) to be very intriguing...

"Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the
Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will
probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices
connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal computers."

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/can-ubuntu-linux-win-on-smartphones-and-tablets/9843

Craig


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Old 12-03-2011, 12:50 AM
Reindl Harald
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

Am 03.12.2011 02:38, schrieb Craig White:
> Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
> a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert

maybe some of the self called ui-experts should take a deep breath
for one or two years and left the users in peace with their next big
thing so that people which are working with their computers are not
permanently interrupted

linus is not a ui-expert but he has more sensibility what users
needs than most of the experts - users are needing workspaces
which are not chaning their whole behavior each year

> "Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the
> Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will
> probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices
> connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal computers."

this is nonsense

the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone
which is permanently online, but this does not mean that all these
people are only using a smartphone or tab which will not happen

not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years

theer are enough people working with their computers and not only
webbrowsing and write some mails!

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Old 12-03-2011, 01:15 AM
Scott Doty
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

Craig White <craigwhite@azapple.com> wrote:

>On Fri,
>Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
>a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
>those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
>actually matters.
>

Yes of course, old boy. Quite amusing. More to the point: we tittered when we read that Linus had an opinion, and that some thought his opinions were regarded much more than those found in our ivory towers from which we post to a Fedora mailing list.

(Signed)

Wilbur Tanenbaum, esq., &c.

Postscript,

>"Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the
>Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will
>probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices
>connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal
>computers."
>
>http://www.zdnet.com

Say no more! Such evidence is more than enough to establish just cause for amusement!

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Old 12-03-2011, 01:21 AM
"Christopher A. Williams"
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 02:50 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:

>
> > "Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the
> > Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will
> > probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices
> > connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal computers."
>
> this is nonsense
>
> the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone
> which is permanently online, but this does not mean that all these
> people are only using a smartphone or tab which will not happen
>
> not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years
>
> theer are enough people working with their computers and not only
> webbrowsing and write some mails!

To the contrary, if you know the full context of Paul Maritz's quote
here, he actually makes complete sense.

I have heard him speak about this in-person and his overall points are
very convincing and well-grounded in facts. The *majority* of Internet
connected devices will definitely be in the smartphone and tablet
category in the next 3 years. That does not mean they will be the *only*
devices. Paul also clearly believes that, as a result of this change,
Windows as an operating system will continue to lose relevance in the
coming years. That's saying a lot considering he is the person who is
largely responsible for engineering the dominance of Windows 95 (whether
you'd call how he did it cheating or not).

He also believes operating systems like Linux will continue to gain in
acceptance and popularity over this time frame, but that this will still
mainly be from non-PC devices. He often refers to this as the coming
Post-PC era.

I believe he is largely correct.

The fact of the matter is we are already seeing this happen. Smartphones
are starting to displace even desktop computers in low income families
because they are cheaper (as in $200 range), constantly connected, and
do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.)
that were once solely the domain of PCs. Tablets are quickly displacing
laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more
difficult to use for producing information than PCs at the moment. They
are equally as good for those who are primarily consumers of
information. Once tablet manufacturers actually decide to deal with
issues around printing and getting more effective input methods in
place, tablet acceptance will likely take off like a shot.

PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be greatly
impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the
sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well
in this coming wave...

Chris

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Old 12-03-2011, 01:41 AM
Ed Greshko
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
> Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
> a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
> those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
> actually matters.

So this is what I hear you saying.....

Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion
does not matter.
Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the
opinions of end users don't matter.

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Old 12-03-2011, 02:10 AM
Craig White
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
> > Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
> > a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
> > those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
> > actually matters.
>
> So this is what I hear you saying.....
>
> Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion
> does not matter.
> Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the
> opinions of end users don't matter.
----
I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).

You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
progress.

Craig


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Old 12-03-2011, 02:40 AM
Scott Doty
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On 12/02/2011 07:10 PM, Craig White wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
>>> Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
>>> a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
>>> those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
>>> actually matters.
>> So this is what I hear you saying.....
>>
>> Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion
>> does not matter.
>> Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the
>> opinions of end users don't matter.
> ----
> I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
> the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).
>
> You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
> you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
> users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
> progress.
>
>

Change for the sake of change has always been idiotic.

In the case of Gnome 2, how many person-hours have been invested for
people to customize their work environments? And poof! All gone!

But it is very hipcrime to be counter-cultural these days -- why yes,
let's poo-poo Linus' opinion -- after all, he's a "long time Linux
user", whose opinion is ranked by idiots to be slightly lower than those
charged with the crime of the current Gnome UI regression.

Those who still employ critical thinking might be interested in the
logical fallacy we are being subjected to:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#novitatem

...but we already knew that, didn't we?

-Scott

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Old 12-03-2011, 02:44 AM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On 12/03/2011 04:10 AM, Craig White wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
>>> Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
>>> a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
>>> those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
>>> actually matters.
>>
>> So this is what I hear you saying.....
>>
>> Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion
>> does not matter.
>> Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the
>> opinions of end users don't matter.
> ----
> I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
> the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).
ACK.

> You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
> you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
> users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
> progress.

Being one of these long time Linux users, I won't deny there is some
truth in what you say. The bigger question is if Gnome 3 is actual
progress or an "epic fail"?

When being presented Gnome 3, my feeling were the same as I had when my
then-3-year-old nice had proudly presented me here "flying horse".
"Look Uncle, my horse has learned to fly" (She had attached a couple of
plastic feathers to her plush pony's back and was throwing it into my
direction.).

Ralf

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Old 12-03-2011, 03:48 AM
Sam Varshavchik
 
Default The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

Craig White writes:


I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).

You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
progress.


It's not that stuff has merely changed. It's that the stuff has changed,
major parts of existing functionality were removed without having any
functional replacements, and every time someone points this out, they're
told that they're too stupid to know what's good for them, and this is The
Better Way. There was a very good rant on Slashdot today, about an apparent
army of fired UI "experts" that, apparently, have nothing better to do than
invade existing projects, and remove existing functionality and replace it
with rounded corners and gradient background colors.


In Gnome 2 I had a usable panel widget that showed my sensors CPU
temperature, a small weather widget, and a power management widget that
actually showed the watt-hour capacity of my laptop battery, so I can
observe it degradation, with every passing month.


Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget. There's one now,
which does not work. I can see why it's broken, it's reading off an internal
hardcoded list of /sys paths, and my kernel creates /sys nodes for its eight
CPU core thermal sensors that the widget doesn't know anything about, so it
just sits there, and tells me I'm running at 0 degrees Celsius. There's
still no weather panel wiget, to my knowledge. At one point I have a dim
recollection that "gnome-power-manager-extras" existed, that added a
comparable watt-hour popup, but right now nothing like it exists, and the
icon just sits there with a single %-age label.


And I won't even get started on the clusterfracas with the desktop icons,
and the evolution of the "have file-manager handle the desktop" option in
tweaktools.


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