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Old 11-28-2011, 12:30 PM
Marko Vojinovic
 
Default Top posting in a meandeing thread was: Fedora - time to blink

On Monday 28 November 2011 20:03:02 Ed Greshko wrote:
> Sorry POC for inserting here.....
>
> I just want to congratulate all the participants in this thread and
> resulting tangents. You've manged to hit at least 3 most often
> recurring themes.
>
> <sarcasm>
>
> A. GNOME 3 is the most hated desktop since the introduction of KDE 4.
>
> B. Licensing in Fedora. Or: Why can't Fedora be more like Ubuntu?
>
> C. Mailing list guidelines. Or: Guidelines, they're for other people.
>
> </sarcasm>

The only thing missing is the confirmation of the Godwin's law. :-D

Best, :-)
Marko


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Old 11-28-2011, 03:35 PM
Matt Rose
 
Default Top posting in a meandeing thread was: Fedora - time to blink

> Sorry POC for inserting here.....
>
> I just want to congratulate all the participants in this thread and
> resulting tangents. You've manged to hit at least 3 most often
> recurring themes.

I realize nothing can be done about the meta "Guidelines" thrash, but you
know, some would say that if something keeps cropping up, over and over,
you might want to ... I don't know ... fix it! Or at least acknowledge
that these are problems, and come up with a plan to deal with them,
whether it be political (licensing, patent-coverage, etc), or technical (
issues with gnome3, issues with fonts, issues with multimedia, etc).

The reason people bring up Ubuntu, and Linux Mint is that these
distributions show that Linux Desktop usability is possible. They've come
up with ways to fix the problems. All Fedora seems to come up with is
excuses.

Matt

>
> <sarcasm>
>
> A. GNOME 3 is the most hated desktop since the introduction of KDE 4.
>
> B. Licensing in Fedora. Or: Why can't Fedora be more like Ubuntu?
>
> C. Mailing list guidelines. Or: Guidelines, they're for other people.
>
> </sarcasm>
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> users mailing list
> users@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:49 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Top posting in a meandeing thread was: Fedora - time to blink

On 11/28/2011 05:30 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> The only thing missing is the confirmation of the Godwin's law. :-D

Well, the number of people hating Gnome proves that Ugol's Law still
works. Now, all we need is an example of Cole's Law.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:58 PM
"G.Wolfe Woodbury"
 
Default Top posting in a meandeing thread was: Fedora - time to blink

On 11/28/2011 01:49 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 11/28/2011 05:30 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
>> The only thing missing is the confirmation of the Godwin's law. :-D
> Well, the number of people hating Gnome proves that Ugol's Law still
> works. Now, all we need is an example of Cole's Law
Well, I'm sure that some folks are of the opinion that the GNOME developers
attitudes and responses to user concerns are pretty fascist.

>:-)

--
G Wolfe Woodbury
redwolfe@gmail.com (proventesters)

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Old 11-28-2011, 06:08 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Top posting in a meandeing thread was: Fedora - time to blink

On 11/28/2011 10:58 AM, G.Wolfe Woodbury wrote:
> Well, I'm sure that some folks are of the opinion that the GNOME developers
> attitudes and responses to user concerns are pretty fascist.

Only those who use the term as a generic insult and haven't the
slightest idea what it means.
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:13 PM
les
 
Default Top posting in a meandeing thread was: Fedora - time to blink

On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 11:15 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
> Am 28.11.2011 09:12, schrieb les:
> > On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 20:00 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
> >> in business-communication top posting and TOFU is normally
> >> because with TOFU you need only the last mail of a conversation
> >> and with the top-posting you need not to scroll and see the whole
> >> answer in the preview after select a message
> >>
> >> so this is all a point of view
> >>
> > But business email is not normally archived for later use. It is
> > essentially one time communications with a few exceptions. And this
> > difference is essential between a mailing list and simple email
> > exchanges.
> > Just my 2 cents worth, and that ain't much these days
>
> where do you work that you are allowed to delete business-communication? :-)
>
>
>

Well, I'm retired now. But day to day communications about everything
non product related, like submit this report, or check on customer x,
and so on were deleted routinely. Today, not much is deleted, I know,
from the central servers, but on the users local disk, a lot of the
day-to-day communications is deleted routinely, and would only be looked
at in some larger context, possibly legal, but even in that area, much
of it is just the drivel of how work gets done. Sometimes it might lead
some legal beagle to some smoking gun, but likely it is just noise.

Additionally the ability to archive huge amounts of communications is a
relatively new capability. I retired in 2005, and disk space was still
a bit of a premium, and I know there are limits even today. Many of my
communications with customers contained files of encrypted and/or
compressed data, and a single programs data files could easily exceed 5G
for one version with generally multiple versions. The data was often
transmitted in several files via EMAIL and sometimes through web portals
with encryption and specific one way accounts.

I am sure those communications, which detailed the progress of programs
and developments are archived somewhere and probably several somewheres.

But by and large, these things have a limited shelf life in the
corporations usage, so the archives were typically TAPE, which was dated
and stored off site. They were and probably are not designed like a
mailing list archive for instantaneous retrieval and review. Nor in
most cases is the historical linkage valuable to someone perusing the
work for references. Likely they are interested in the end product for
reproduction or reuse. Which is not the same type of use as a mailing
list.

Regards,
Les H

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Old 11-28-2011, 08:25 PM
Ed Greshko
 
Default Top posting in a meandeing thread was: Fedora - time to blink

On 11/29/2011 12:35 AM, Matt Rose wrote:
>> Sorry POC for inserting here.....
>>
>> I just want to congratulate all the participants in this thread and
>> resulting tangents. You've manged to hit at least 3 most often
>> recurring themes.
> I realize nothing can be done about the meta "Guidelines" thrash, but you
> know, some would say that if something keeps cropping up, over and over,
> you might want to ... I don't know ... fix it! Or at least acknowledge
> that these are problems, and come up with a plan to deal with them,
> whether it be political (licensing, patent-coverage, etc), or technical (
> issues with gnome3, issues with fonts, issues with multimedia, etc).

<sarcasm>

Ah, yes.....

D. Everybody knows X, Y, or Z is *Completely* and *Utterly" broken and
we keep bringing it up on this mailing list...but *nobody* does
*anything*. Or: Why I can't be bothered with filing bugzillas or
joining/forming a team to "improve" the situation.

</sarcasm>

>
> The reason people bring up Ubuntu, and Linux Mint is that these
> distributions show that Linux Desktop usability is possible. They've come
> up with ways to fix the problems. All Fedora seems to come up with is
> excuses.

FYI, there is an "E" in there....but it may result in pulling me into
the endless food fight that I feel is counterproductive at this point.

>
> Matt
>
>> <sarcasm>
>>
>> A. GNOME 3 is the most hated desktop since the introduction of KDE 4.
>>
>> B. Licensing in Fedora. Or: Why can't Fedora be more like Ubuntu?
>>
>> C. Mailing list guidelines. Or: Guidelines, they're for other people.
>>
>> </sarcasm>
>> --
>> users mailing list
>> users@lists.fedoraproject.org
>> To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>> Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>> Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
>>


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Old 11-29-2011, 01:16 AM
"G.Wolfe Woodbury"
 
Default Top posting in a meandeing thread was: Fedora - time to blink

On 11/28/2011 02:08 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 11/28/2011 10:58 AM, G.Wolfe Woodbury wrote:
>> Well, I'm sure that some folks are of the opinion that the GNOME developers
>> attitudes and responses to user concerns are pretty fascist.
> Only those who use the term as a generic insult and haven't the
> slightest idea what it means.
In this case it's misused as a substitute for oligarchy.

The imposition of GNOME3 is being imposed from a small group of key folks
despite the vociferous complaints. The developers don't owe users
anything (except
the respect due to every person) but perhaps they just might want to
understand
that the features they have introduced may not survive the selection
process that
is called "user adoption". The symbiotic relationship is being strained
and some of
the complaints are more than just whining about change.

Personally, I've adapted to GNOME3 about as much as I feel comfortable
in doing.
I'm studying other DEs and distros to see if they match my needs more
than the
current Fedora direction. This is exactly what the evolution of
software systems
says is going to happen. The question is will Fedora survive as
currently conceived?

As for the term "fascist" it was originally an attempt to
light-heartedly point to
Godwin's Law conjecture, but I may just let it stand given the public
and not-so-public
debate and resulting statements that have been made.

--
G.Wolfe Woodbury
redwolfe@gmail.com (Fedora proventester)

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