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Old 11-13-2011, 06:32 AM
Gilboa Davara
 
Default Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 9:15 AM, JB <jb.1234abcd@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> every Fedora release is going downhill ...
>
> Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on
> its own ?

I usually try to simply ignore obvious flame posts.
... But never the less, one question:
Fedora is a RH product and its based on RH personal and resources. You
cannot and should not "decouple" it from RH.
If you don't like the direction RH is taking Fedora, why are you still
using it? Heck, fork it and take it to the direction *you* see fit and
lets see how you fare without the RH resources.

- Gilboa
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Old 11-13-2011, 06:50 AM
Thomas Cameron
 
Default Trends - how to save Fedora ?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/13/2011 01:15 AM, JB wrote:
> Hi,
>
> every Fedora release is going downhill ...

Erm, no. Each Fedora release has brought in numerous technical
improvements. Virtualization, clustering, directory services, more and
more features and performance per release.

> Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on
> its own ?

And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where
do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off?

> Linux distros:
> http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/y

Without knowing a *lot* about how this information was gathered, it's
meaningless.

> Fedora, Red Hat:
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=fedora%2C+redhat&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all& sort=0

These trends are pretty meaningless. Less searches on a technology don't
necessarily mean the technology is on the wane. It could very well be
that people are more comfortable so they're not Googling as much. Or
that they know to go straight to the most popular Fedora sites or the
Red Hat portal.

Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year
(FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X
increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth.

Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which
indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not
down.

Statistics cobbled together from dubious sources don't really concern
me. They probably shouldn't concern you, either. You can manipulate the
same data to prove almost anything you want.

Remember, there are three kinds of lies - likes, damned lies, and
statistics.

[1] http://investors.redhat.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=355567
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Old 11-13-2011, 11:45 AM
JB
 
Default Trends - how to save Fedora ?

Thomas Cameron <thomas.cameron <at> camerontech.com> writes:

>
>
> On 11/13/2011 01:15 AM, JB wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > every Fedora release is going downhill ...
>
> Erm, no. Each Fedora release has brought in numerous technical
> improvements. Virtualization, clustering, directory services, more and
> more features and performance per release.

Yes, but at what cost to Fedora and its community ?
Read on.

> > Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on
> > its own ?
>
> And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where
> do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off?

Some from an independent Fedora devs, others from other distros by adoption of
those that are useful and not conflicting with its goals.
Read on.

> > Linux distros:
> > http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/y
>
> Without knowing a *lot* about how this information was gathered, it's
> meaningless.

We have to rely on them in formulating trends, which are approximations
anyway.

> > Fedora, Red Hat:
> > http://www.google.com/trends?q=fedora%2C+redhat&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all& sort=0
>
> These trends are pretty meaningless. Less searches on a technology don't
> necessarily mean the technology is on the wane. It could very well be
> that people are more comfortable so they're not Googling as much. Or
> that they know to go straight to the most popular Fedora sites or the
> Red Hat portal.

Be careful in your interpretations.
Search engines are gold mines of data for which many companies are willing to
pay lots of money.
It is one of Google's main businesses, that is collecting, tabulating, and
interpreting, and selling it.

>
> Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year
> (FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X
> increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth.

Yes, it is. But it is also a reflection of economic decline, financial crash,
IT crash that make "free" software attractive, even necessary for survival.

> Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which
> indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not
> down.

That does not mean much - what sticks, counts.
I downloaded F16, it gave me a big kernel dump with other errors - it is good
for my dev machine as a reference of what is going on, but not good beyond
that.

> Statistics cobbled together from dubious sources don't really concern
> me. They probably shouldn't concern you, either. You can manipulate the
> same data to prove almost anything you want.
>
> Remember, there are three kinds of lies - likes, damned lies, and
> statistics.
>
> [1] http://investors.redhat.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=355567

Well, one has to be somewhat sceptical, indeed.
Read on.

The ladies protest too much :-)

You can follow the users' frustrations with the state of recent Fedora
releases here on this and other lists.

Fedora is unstable, release by release, progressively worse.
It is becoming a dump place for projects that are pushed by RH and
automatically sanctioned by its subordinates here at Fedora (some of them
admit to be torn between job loyalty and doubts), without consideration for
their sometimes questionable goals, quality, effects on system stability,
adherence to UNIX principles, lacking adequate testing, in short too
disruptive even to pre-conditioned Fedora community.

There is a lack of independent users representation in Fedora project's
governing bodies who should and would be able to be more critical and stop
some of this damage even before it enters the actual development, not to
mention implementation stages.

SELinux is a static, straightjacket-like security control system, badly
designed with its requirement for off-line system re-labeling, ineffective and
inflexible for ad-hoc installed packages, with incomprehensible/non-intuitive
psedo-scientific naming convention for control labels, difficult to use and
judge by an average sysadmin and user (which mostly results in accepting
problem cases as valid exceptions, or filing Bugzilla reports which makes
the maintainer and RH services unavoidable).
Yes, the maintainers are doing good job, but within those faulty perimeters.

GNOME 3 is an example of how not to do it, also influenced by RH devs.
If you think that this is an example of how to influence the state of Linux
desktop, then you live in a strange world.
People (many volunteers) have worked on it for more than 10 years to convince
users (inclusive the critical business community) to give them a chance.
The good results achieved even caused M$ to list Linux desktop as a danger to
their desktop business in its SEC documents.
Guess what ? They removed it recently.
All they had to do is just wait for the enemy within ...

With regard to Systemd, it is the most recent example of non-UNIX-like (or
more like old M$-like) approach to software develoment. It is obvious by its
goals, design, and reaction to criticism - they are not of UNIX mind ...
Linux API to be a new standard, over POSIX. Screw up everybody else ...
Integration of GNOME desktop and systemd in sight ... on the way to integrated
old style M$-like desktop and system that ironically M$ is trying to get away
from ? LOL !
There are still ca. 300 packages that are not converted from SysV/LSB to it by
their maintainers who resist or do not see a reason for the "progress" despite
all threats.
SysVinit/LSB primitive, "slow"/"unparallel" scripts are alive and kicking and
busting systemd in tests, but in a Knoppix distribution, thank you ...
One more example of pseudo-engineering, wrong goals, and how to make future
systemd maintainer and RH services unavoidable.
Me thinks these attempted non-UNIX-like and non-KISS approaches, oriented on
creating conditions for "authorized" support services only, will backfire.

I already expressed my objections to RH/Fedora's treatment of "default"
features here:
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2011-November/407013.html
It is so block-headed to try to force these features despite test results and
users telling them clearly not to do it or revolting post factum (what else ?).

I already told you a year ago, when discussing SELinux and Linux security
models, that all "revolutionaries" will eventually become the "dictators" and
"oppressors" as soon as they are allowed into the salons.
It is a historical fact.
As a result, they will be resisted and eventually abandoned and considered
enemies by those who brought them in there ...

There are problems in CentoS land, already reflected in their users list
discussions and considerations of or actual migrations to other systems.
Scientific Linux is not 100% RHEL compatible any more, contrary to beliefs.
You already know of RH vice Oracle "unauthorized service" dispute and counter
measures.

Perhaps there is a light in a tunnel for GPL-style license ? It served RH and
others well, but they are in salons now ... And hiding some technologies from
competitors n the f uture would be useful too.

All of it is killing the average Fedora community and causing users migrating
away. That's why I said perhaps Fedora would be better off by becoming a truly
independent distro, and most important true to UNIX.

You think the trends are lying ? The users lists too ? Perhaps.

Yes, do become angry, fellas ...
And do not fall off your chair's edge -

JB




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Old 11-13-2011, 12:54 PM
夜神 岩男
 
Default Trends - how to save Fedora ?

>> Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year
>> (FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X
>> increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth.
>
> Yes, it is. But it is also a reflection of economic decline, financial crash,
> IT crash that make "free" software attractive, even necessary for survival.

Capitalism mimics nature: chaotic, violent, cannibalistic, and promotes
progressive adaptation above all other things. This is not a sign of
economic decline, but a shift to a better mode of operation. When the
web is recognized to be something other than the OS/development platform
it has been mistaken for of late it will not longer be a fad absorbing
gobs of trash funding -- and that will not represent economic decline,
but rather a structural correction within the market.

You won't be lamenting the decline of internal combustion engine makers
when a new "cleaner" method of energy conversion is developed to replace
current automobile engine -- because it is politically and socially
unacceptable to lament such "dirty" things. IT is no different, just
less politically charged in the eyes of the general population because
they understand that they don't understand it well enough to have strong
opinions on most points (whereas everyone is an expert in climatology
and planetary cosmology). The IT market is massively overweight,
overvalued and engages in enormously wasteful development practices
right now. Open source development for the most common of software
system elements + a revenue stream based on hardware sales and computing
services provision (a very broad category worth huge money on its own) =
a better model for the customer. IBM knows this. Intel isn't too happy
about this. RedHat has placed itself at the most critical part of the
process as the servicer. Microsoft is done creating success and is
scrambling to now not create failure -- which is a really bad operating
mode for a business (IBM was there once itself). That's just good
business on RedHat's part and indicates a mature market understanding on
the part of IBM.

>> Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which
>> indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not
>> down.
>
> That does not mean much - what sticks, counts.
> I downloaded F16, it gave me a big kernel dump with other errors - it is good
> for my dev machine as a reference of what is going on, but not good beyond
> that.

Fedora was never intended to be useful in any other way to you. That it
in fact is far more useful than that in most use cases is a testament to
how coherent the Fedora project really is, despite its pace of
development. And that is pretty amazing considering we lack a common
architectural goal or vision.

> Fedora is unstable, release by release, progressively worse.
> It is becoming a dump place for projects that are pushed by RH and
> automatically sanctioned by its subordinates here at Fedora (some of them
> admit to be torn between job loyalty and doubts), without consideration for
> their sometimes questionable goals, quality, effects on system stability,
> adherence to UNIX principles, lacking adequate testing, in short too
> disruptive even to pre-conditioned Fedora community.
>
> There is a lack of independent users representation in Fedora project's
> governing bodies who should and would be able to be more critical and stop
> some of this damage even before it enters the actual development, not to
> mention implementation stages.

I'm not on the board, but I'm an independent outsider. I don't like the
state of systemd. I liked SysV because I know it well. Spending time
reading the systemd-dev list has convinced me that systemd is actually a
good idea, just not one that is fully implemented yet. Very importantly,
it is also not suffering from the problems that Hurd only recently
overcame on the project level. I expect great things from systemd --
within a year or so. Until then, RHEL or SL are fantastic stability
options -- and Vine fits my wife's needs perfectly without being too
different for me to manage for her.

> SELinux is a static, straightjacket-like security control system, badly
> designed with its requirement for off-line system re-labeling, ineffective and
> inflexible for ad-hoc installed packages, with incomprehensible/non-intuitive
> psedo-scientific naming convention for control labels, difficult to use and
> judge by an average sysadmin and user (which mostly results in accepting
> problem cases as valid exceptions, or filing Bugzilla reports which makes
> the maintainer and RH services unavoidable).

Have you ever configured Sendmail or tried to write a common coding
specification for a web application which is supposed to run in Chrome,
Firefox, Safari and IE? (Or just for starters tried to make sense of the
new Firefox cycle or figure out what is going on in Chrome's hacked-up
bundled libraries before the next version is already released?) SELinux
is a snap compared to either experience.

SELinux is designed precisely to be a straightjacket -- the prisoner can
get air, and the exact amount of allocated food and water to his mouth,
and mumble just loudly enough to ask to poo; and that's all its supposed
to be able to do. Ad-hoc installation of packages is the root of many
security evils, and SELinux is specifically designed to play mean and
unfair games with unknown quanities. Somehow I haven't had trouble
installing software from source, developing on non-root accounts, or
really doing anything once I learned just a tiny bit about SELinux (and
I really mean a *tiny* bit).

> GNOME 3 is an example of how not to do it, also influenced by RH devs.

I don't like Gnome 3, either. When it came out it made me unhappy, so I
tried the whole XFCE thing out. Its OK. But my SL and Vine systems are
so comfortable with Gnome2... but then I actually gave KDE a real look.
And... I'm really impressed. There are alternatives, and some of them
are pretty amazingly good if you set your preconceptions aside. The
reason I'd never really known about KDE4 before was I had followed the
general sentiment against it when it came out (it was trash early on
anyway) and permitted that early prejudice to color my thinking since
then. It was about time to take a re-look, and I'm glad that I did --
the paradigm is somewhere in between the Gnome3 and Gnome2 worlds and it
is at least as full featured as Gnome2 was with a lot of subtle, slick
features for developers thrown in there that take time to discover,
which suits the way I used the system just fine.

Anyway, I'm not trying to plug KDE, SL or Vine, but rather point out
that there are both distro alternatives and very featureful desktop
alternatives for you within Fedora. But don't be surprised that
something about Fedora changes. Everything about Fedora changes in very
complete ways with regularity. And it should.

Someday when we live in a world when the walls of my house are gigantic
tablets and laser detection of my eye and finger movements makes
wish-clicking a normal thing, I'll give Gnome3 another look. Saving
that, the project might fix some of the silly interface ideas they have
implemented and draw me back before that. Either way, its a project
worth watching, whether or not I'll ever be using it myself.

> With regard to Systemd, it is the most recent example of non-UNIX-like (or
> more like old M$-like) approach to software develoment. It is obvious by its
> goals, design, and reaction to criticism - they are not of UNIX mind ...
> Linux API to be a new standard, over POSIX. Screw up everybody else ...
> Integration of GNOME desktop and systemd in sight ... on the way to integrated
> old style M$-like desktop and system that ironically M$ is trying to get away
> from ? LOL !

Fortunately it isn't quite as bleak as all that. I was afraid of the
same initially myself. If things do go that way then yeah, Fedora and
RedHat will have not merely shot themselves in the foot but blown their
lower half off -- and someone else will fill the gap there. That's fine
with me. Someone smarter will just win and I'll be using their system
instead -- no reason to be a loyalist if the project starts doing things
that colossaly stupid.

As far as Linux API vs POSIX -- that is a valid point on the surface,
but the POSIX specification is actually really vague. It is not
unimaginable that the intent is for the Linux API to be a stricter
definition that fits (at least mostly, if not entirely) within the POSIX
specification. That's not unreasonable at all, actually. Consider
Fedora's policies regarding FHS. Fedora-compliant means something a bit
different than FHS compliant -- but the Fedora spec fits within the FHS
spec by being more clear about things and disabiguating the things that
flimsy committees built around the sweet dreams of consensus aren't
competent to put their foot down about in the context of the bitter
nightmares of reality.

Blah blah... I'm done blathering and will resume my net coma.

tl;dr: Economic progress is always creatively destructive by nature, and
this is a good thing. Things aren't as bleak as they seem. Open source
can still move in any direction that you are willing to move it in (but
not by trolling mailing lists). There are alternatives if this isn't
your cup of tea.

-Iwao
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Old 11-13-2011, 01:30 PM
Alan Cox
 
Default Trends - how to save Fedora ?

> Erm, no. Each Fedora release has brought in numerous technical
> improvements. Virtualization, clustering, directory services, more and
> more features and performance per release.

That's a politicians answer. It's completely ignoring the point raised.

It doesn't matter how many features a new release has if it doesn't even
run properly on lots of systems. Most of the features are also
irrelevant to most of the users. In F15 you could at least make the case
that Gnome3 was relevant to users even if some hated it and chunks of the
code were at best prototype state. (and I'd note the Phoronix survey data
suggests that Gnome 3 is rather more liked than some might think from
list traffic)

But clustering and directory services, like forcing LVM on hapless end
users are really irrelevant to most. LVM wasn't a big deal for those who
knew better - disable it on install and your disk I/O improves, and
its become vaguely relevant with crypto. All of this is painting the
fences and hanging bling on a core product which is getting a bit
wobblier every release

It's bloated
It picks bad user defaults
It ships a default desktop which burns CPU horribly

> And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where
> do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off?

Perhaps the Red Hat engineers could QA their new technologies a bit
more before including them ?

I don't buy the "big problem" claim here. Several other releases have
been a bit wobbly especially out of the box first release. Nor do a few
crash reports in themselves form a statistically valid sample.

I do think that as has happened a couple of times before now it's time
Fedora spent a release or two being more conservative on new toys and
fixing the ones it already has.

> > Linux distros:
> > http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/y
>
> Without knowing a *lot* about how this information was gathered, it's
> meaningless.

Ah the cult of Gnome defence - insert fingers in ears and keep shouting
loudly "We can't hear you, we can't hear you, anything we don't agree
with is biased"

(to be fair I note you point to some sensible stats further down)

> Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year
> (FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X
> increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth.

RHEL is IMHO a good product, with well thought out services around it,
but it's not Fedora, and I really don't want to think how 'we've
redesigned all your init scripts and broken compatibility' would go down
in a meeting with a major banking client. I suspect 'The door is that
way, Sir, goodbye and tell the Oracle salesman to come in as you leave'

> Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which
> indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not
> down.

Be careful that downloads are a lagging indicator of success. They go up
after you get it right not as, and they go down after you get it wrong,
not as...

Alan
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Old 11-13-2011, 01:44 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On 11/13/2011 08:00 PM, Alan Cox wrote:

>> Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which
>> indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not
>> down.
>
> Be careful that downloads are a lagging indicator of success. They go up
> after you get it right not as, and they go down after you get it wrong,
> not as...

Those are *not* just statistics on downloads.

Rahul
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Old 11-13-2011, 01:45 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 07:15:20 +0000,
JB <jb.1234abcd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> every Fedora release is going downhill ...

If you are referring to quality, I disagree that they are going downhill.

If you are referring to mindshare amoung people that use linux, that
seems likely to be true. Ubuntu and Mint seem to be pretty popular now.

> Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on
> its own ?

I don't see how that could help. Fedora needs more contributors, not less.
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Old 11-13-2011, 01:58 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default Trends - how to save Fedora ?

Am 13.11.2011 15:30, schrieb Alan Cox:
> LVM wasn't a big deal for those who knew better
> disable it on install and your disk I/O improves, and
> its become vaguely relevant with crypto.

yes, this should be only a option and never made as default

LVM is for most peopole not useful especially on a notebook
where you have nothing to extend with a second disk and
remember that you have lost the game if you extend a LVM o
over several disks and of them dies without RAID

> It's bloated
> It picks bad user defaults
> It ships a default desktop which burns CPU horribly

the defaults may be not so bad but way too soon often

>> And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where
>> do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off?
>
> Perhaps the Red Hat engineers could QA their new technologies a bit
> more before including them ?

THIS is the point

making things more ready, delay them if they are not really ready
and stop waste the benefit of opensource which is "it will be released
if it is finished" without a hard timeline would improve things much

> I do think that as has happened a couple of times before now it's time
> Fedora spent a release or two being more conservative on new toys and
> fixing the ones it already has

i would appreciate that every second release would only stabilize and
polish existing features, fying bugs, improve things, overthink defaults

the only component which should be as near on upstream as possible is the
kernel to support current hardware and not like it happened with F14 that
it was unuseable on Sandy-Bridge hardware by not support the network-card
because the hw-identifier was unknown while the driver is the same and
the GUI heavily freezed multiple times each day with the graphics-unit

this was because F14 is hanging around with 2.6.35 and with the changes of F15
you have really no otpion as user - this problem is solved with F15 2.6.40
since months and 2.6.41 currently in the pipeline
________________

now we have sytemd which is a real good thing - in theory, until not
all services are converted, "chkconfig | grep on" does only show sysv
units and so on - the point with "chkconfig" is that it is the wrong
way to introduce permanently new commands like systemctl you must use
because all the well known things are working bader and bader

what users need over the long is stability in commands and get new ones
for really new features but not loose everything they learned ober years

teh acceptatance of new technology will be far better if the whole
behaviour for the user is changed permanently

rant like te one from JB "Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become
quality UNIX-like distro on its own" are naive and not helpful because most
of are realizing how much of all the things we loved was and are developed
by redhat and how near redhat works upstream (kernel, glibc, gcc..) and we
are knwoing that the fedora-users are a little bit test-toys for the
development - but this should never get too far what happened in the past
________________

there should be a way to minimize the nagetive impact for the users
over the long, bring a little more stability in new releases with not
throwing everything out in the earliest state while not beeing too
conservative, but a little more like the last time

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Old 11-13-2011, 02:10 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:45:34 +0000,
JB <jb.1234abcd@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some from an independent Fedora devs, others from other distros by adoption of
> those that are useful and not conflicting with its goals.

That is unlikely to happen. More likely the fork would just die.

> Fedora is unstable, release by release, progressively worse.

I am not seeing this. I am seeing a lot of change between releases, but the
stability within releases hasn't changed much. Most of the instability I
have seen over the last few years (once a version is released, rawhide tends
to have other issues) has been due to regressions in the upstream kernel.

> It is becoming a dump place for projects that are pushed by RH and
> automatically sanctioned by its subordinates here at Fedora (some of them
> admit to be torn between job loyalty and doubts), without consideration for
> their sometimes questionable goals, quality, effects on system stability,
> adherence to UNIX principles, lacking adequate testing, in short too
> disruptive even to pre-conditioned Fedora community.

Fedora is supposed to be a place to test out new technologies. Prerelease
testing for Fedora has improved for recent releases. I will agree that
there has been a lot of user facing change in the last few releases.
(Things like gnome 3 and systemd.)

> There is a lack of independent users representation in Fedora project's
> governing bodies who should and would be able to be more critical and stop
> some of this damage even before it enters the actual development, not to
> mention implementation stages.

I disagree there. Independent users do get elected to the board and FESCO.
And even for the Redhat employees, many of those were independent
contributors to Fedora who were hired by Redhat so that they could put
more time into Fedora. While this also gives Redhat more influence over
them, as far as I can observe most are acting pretty much as they did
before getting hired.

> SELinux is a static, straightjacket-like security control system, badly
> designed with its requirement for off-line system re-labeling, ineffective and

You can normally relabel online. You can relabel files unless you are
running in a more strict mode than the default. There can be interactions
with running processes, but within a release this normally isn't a problem.

> GNOME 3 is an example of how not to do it, also influenced by RH devs.

Maybe. But given gnome 3. it made sense to replace Gnome 2 in Fedora with
Gnome 3 given the goals of the Fedora project. Whether or not it should
be the featured desktop or whether the various supported desktops
should be showcased on a more equal footing is an area where there should
be discussion from time to time.

> The good results achieved even caused M$ to list Linux desktop as a danger to
> their desktop business in its SEC documents.
> Guess what ? They removed it recently.

That probably had more to do with being convicted of abusing their monopoly
position and with the requirement for monitoring ending.

> With regard to Systemd, it is the most recent example of non-UNIX-like (or
> more like old M$-like) approach to software develoment. It is obvious by its
> goals, design, and reaction to criticism - they are not of UNIX mind ...
> Linux API to be a new standard, over POSIX. Screw up everybody else ...

People haven't liked the init system for ages. That's why systemd is only
the latest of several attempts to improve it.

> There are still ca. 300 packages that are not converted from SysV/LSB to it by
> their maintainers who resist or do not see a reason for the "progress" despite
> all threats.

This is more likely due to contributors being overstretched, than actual
opposition to systed in the mahority of these cases.
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Old 11-13-2011, 02:21 PM
Reindl Harald
 
Default Trends - how to save Fedora ?

Am 13.11.2011 16:10, schrieb Bruno Wolff III:
>> There are still ca. 300 packages that are not converted from SysV/LSB to it by
>> their maintainers who resist or do not see a reason for the "progress" despite
>> all threats.
>
> This is more likely due to contributors being overstretched, than actual
> opposition to systed in the mahority of these cases

and that is the point where all involved peopole should start to think
why this is the case - in my opinion tis happens while way too much big
changes are done in way too less time and contributors start loose this
game over the long

what should a contributor do if he has only a samll time window until
big changes are throwed out nevermind if they are ready or not while
he has to do his job, having a family and the right to relax some
amount of his lifetime?

if it happens too often that contributors are overstretched something
is going wrong - help them with delay new features as long all the
involved people are ready instead put them under pressure and give
them the feeling "and after you survived this big change do not
think you have time to breath because the next big is waiting"



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