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Old 10-13-2011, 12:23 AM
Tom Horsley
 
Default Yep, names like p4p1 are soooo much better than eth0 :-(

Especially when a new biosdevname package is installed and it
decides the name is no longer p4p1, but is now p6p1.

All the iptables rules that refer to the interface name
are broken.

The ifcfg-p4p1 file needs to be renamed and edited.

Wasn't the theory propounded that these new names
would cause less confusion?

(And why was having some disks named hda0 versus sda0
confusing, so we had to change all the names to sda0?
Can these two theories be made compatible? :-).
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:45 AM
Thomas Dineen
 
Default Yep, names like p4p1 are soooo much better than eth0 :-(

Gentle People:

Keep in mind that I have the up most respect for the volunteer
Fedora developers and their efforts!

Do we need to have some sort of regularity forum or regime
to control changes to the look and feel of the Fedora Code?

Keep in mind that I am speaking from the users standpoint,
where I am seeing a lot of changes that:
a) Seriously annoy and inconvenience the user.
b) Seem to have little logical justification or utility.

Maybe we need to have Forum like this one where we discuss
and approve these changes before they are implemented?

For example the proponents provide a (Short) written proposal
and justification, then interested parties are encourages to comment on
the implications of the proposed change. Collateral damage? Who else
will be required to make changes to what packages? How are users
affected? Existing scripts and applications?

Thomas Dineen




On 10/12/2011 5:23 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
> Especially when a new biosdevname package is installed and it
> decides the name is no longer p4p1, but is now p6p1.
>
> All the iptables rules that refer to the interface name
> are broken.
>
> The ifcfg-p4p1 file needs to be renamed and edited.
>
> Wasn't the theory propounded that these new names
> would cause less confusion?
>
> (And why was having some disks named hda0 versus sda0
> confusing, so we had to change all the names to sda0?
> Can these two theories be made compatible? :-).

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Old 10-13-2011, 01:35 AM
Robert Myers
 
Default Yep, names like p4p1 are soooo much better than eth0 :-(

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Thomas Dineen <tdineen@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>
> * * *Maybe we need to have Forum like this one where we discuss
> and approve these changes before they are implemented?
>

Forget it. Computer software types understand neither physics nor
mathematics, nor, for the most part, how computers actually work.

In order for this sub-species to survive emotionally, it is necessary
for them to have control over something. Since they don't understand
anything they don't control arbitrarily, arbitrary changes are the
price we pay for the services of these geniuses.

Robert.
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Old 10-13-2011, 01:43 AM
Mike Wohlgemuth
 
Default Yep, names like p4p1 are soooo much better than eth0 :-(

On 10/12/2011 09:35 PM, Robert Myers wrote:
> Forget it. Computer software types understand neither physics nor
> mathematics, nor, for the most part, how computers actually work.
>
> In order for this sub-species to survive emotionally, it is necessary
> for them to have control over something. Since they don't understand
> anything they don't control arbitrarily, arbitrary changes are the
> price we pay for the services of these geniuses.
>
Can you please cut this crap out? Can all the people on this list that
feel the need to insult Fedora and its devs please choose another
distribution to use and unsubscribe from this list? Adults have better
things to do than to slog through this kind of ugliness.

The adults also realize that Fedora already has a process pretty much
exactly as Thomas described, and participate in it if they want to.

Thanks
Mike
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Old 10-13-2011, 01:44 AM
Robert Myers
 
Default Yep, names like p4p1 are soooo much better than eth0 :-(

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Mike Wohlgemuth <mjw@woogie.net> wrote:
> On 10/12/2011 09:35 PM, Robert Myers wrote:
>> Forget it. *Computer software types understand neither physics nor
>> mathematics, nor, for the most part, how computers actually work.
>>
>> In order for this sub-species to survive emotionally, it is necessary
>> for them to have control over something. *Since they don't understand
>> anything they don't control arbitrarily, arbitrary changes are the
>> price we pay for the services of these geniuses.
>>
> Can you please cut this crap out?

No.

Robert.
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Old 10-13-2011, 01:54 AM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default Yep, names like p4p1 are soooo much better than eth0 :-(

On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:45:52 -0700
Thomas Dineen <tdineen@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

...snip...

> Keep in mind that I am speaking from the users standpoint,
> where I am seeing a lot of changes that:
> a) Seriously annoy and inconvenience the user.
> b) Seem to have little logical justification or utility.
>
> Maybe we need to have Forum like this one where we discuss
> and approve these changes before they are implemented?
>
> For example the proponents provide a (Short) written proposal
> and justification, then interested parties are encourages to comment
> on the implications of the proposed change. Collateral damage? Who
> else will be required to make changes to what packages? How are users
> affected? Existing scripts and applications?

To some extent we have this in the Feature process.

For example, the network biosdevname feature is outlined at
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ConsistentNetworkDeviceNaming
including rationale and how to easily disable it, and other feature
information.

There's no way every change could be proposed and brought up on this
list for scrutiny however, there's just no way it could handle the
volume, even if all developers working on anything in Linux knew to
discuss their development here.

You're welcome to look over the F16 features for any you want to chime
in on... http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/16/FeatureList

Otherwise I can only suggest you get involved in areas you are
concerned with the development of.

kevin
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:33 PM
"Darryl L. Pierce"
 
Default Yep, names like p4p1 are soooo much better than eth0 :-(

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 09:43:24PM -0400, Mike Wohlgemuth wrote:
> On 10/12/2011 09:35 PM, Robert Myers wrote:
> > Forget it. Computer software types understand neither physics nor
> > mathematics, nor, for the most part, how computers actually work.
> >
> > In order for this sub-species to survive emotionally, it is necessary
> > for them to have control over something. Since they don't understand
> > anything they don't control arbitrarily, arbitrary changes are the
> > price we pay for the services of these geniuses.
> >
> Can you please cut this crap out? Can all the people on this list that
> feel the need to insult Fedora and its devs please choose another
> distribution to use and unsubscribe from this list? Adults have better
> things to do than to slog through this kind of ugliness.

+1

>
> The adults also realize that Fedora already has a process pretty much
> exactly as Thomas described, and participate in it if they want to.

--
Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc.
Delivering value year after year.
Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors.
http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/

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Old 10-15-2011, 10:54 PM
John Aldrich
 
Default Yep, names like p4p1 are soooo much better than eth0 :-(

On Thu October 13 2011, Darryl L. Pierce wrote:
> > The adults also realize that Fedora already has a process pretty much
> > exactly as Thomas described, and participate in it if they want to.
>
Really? What is it? How do we access this wondrous special forum on
changing device names on a whim of a dev?
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Old 10-16-2011, 12:59 AM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Yep, names like p4p1 are soooo much better than eth0 :-(

On 10/16/2011 04:24 AM, John Aldrich wrote:
> On Thu October 13 2011, Darryl L. Pierce wrote:
>>> The adults also realize that Fedora already has a process pretty much
>>> exactly as Thomas described, and participate in it if they want to.
>>
> Really? What is it? How do we access this wondrous special forum on
> changing device names on a whim of a dev?

Nothing major like this gets changed on whims. This change was done to
solve real world problems.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ConsistentNetworkDeviceNaming

The special forum is just linux kernel mailing list and fedora devel
list where this was broadly announced and discussed. All major features
follow the feature process
(http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Policy) and gets voted upon by
the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee which itself is a body elected
by the Fedora contributors. If you subscribe and follow fedora devel
list, you can follow all such discussions in the future.

Rahul


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Old 10-16-2011, 01:08 AM
Robert Myers
 
Default Yep, names like p4p1 are soooo much better than eth0 :-(

On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 8:59 PM, Rahul Sundaram <metherid@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/16/2011 04:24 AM, John Aldrich wrote:
>> On Thu October 13 2011, Darryl L. Pierce wrote:
>>>> The adults also realize that Fedora already has a process pretty much
>>>> exactly as Thomas described, and participate in it if they want to.
>>>
>> Really? What is it? How do we access this wondrous special forum on
>> changing device names on a whim of a dev?
>
> Nothing major like this gets changed on whims. *This change was done to
> solve real world problems.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ConsistentNetworkDeviceNaming
>
> The special forum is just linux kernel mailing list and fedora devel
> list where this was broadly announced and discussed. *All major features
> follow the feature process
> (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Policy) and gets voted upon by
> the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee which itself is a body elected
> by the Fedora contributors. * If you subscribe and follow fedora devel
> list, you can follow all such discussions in the future.
>
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

Your description of the process betrays exactly what is wrong with it.
It's a hobby shop for geeks with a very narrow perspective on
computers and how they are actually used.

Even Microsoft tests changes on *users*. Of course, Fedora is sort of
a beta distribution for RedHat.

Robert.
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