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Old 02-17-2008, 01:05 AM
Bill Davidsen
 
Default Fedora Unity release

Does anyone have a bittorrent link for the Unity spins? I get 3-3.5Mbit
speed with torrent, and 200-400Kbit with that jigdo thing. Last month I
ran for five days and was still missing 27 parts, so it's kind of off my
list of usefully fast methods, using no parallelism at all, and not
letting users contribute to the supply.


--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
"Woe unto the statesman who makes war without a reason that will still
be valid when the war is over..." Otto von Bismark



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Old 02-17-2008, 02:20 AM
Robert L Cochran
 
Default Fedora Unity release

I use jigdo myself and like the way it pulls packages from a list of
servers, so that no one server is stressed with a long download
connection that might be dropped or which might be so busy you can't log
onto it.

The really bad thing about jigdo is that it isn't smart enough by
default to notice that one or more servers consistently have connection
problems, and it keeps hitting them again and again in round-robin
fashion retrying the connection, and that in turn wastes a lot of time.
Jigdo should drop a server after two different sets of two attempts per
set which still fail to connect, and then go on to the next server in
the list.

Bob Cochran
Greenbelt, Maryland, USA


Bill Davidsen wrote:
> Does anyone have a bittorrent link for the Unity spins? I get
> 3-3.5Mbit speed with torrent, and 200-400Kbit with that jigdo thing.
> Last month I ran for five days and was still missing 27 parts, so it's
> kind of off my list of usefully fast methods, using no parallelism at
> all, and not letting users contribute to the supply.
>

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Old 02-17-2008, 03:23 AM
"Kevin J. Cummings"
 
Default Fedora Unity release

Robert L Cochran wrote:
> I use jigdo myself and like the way it pulls packages from a list of
> servers, so that no one server is stressed with a long download
> connection that might be dropped or which might be so busy you can't log
> onto it.
>
> The really bad thing about jigdo is that it isn't smart enough by
> default to notice that one or more servers consistently have connection
> problems, and it keeps hitting them again and again in round-robin
> fashion retrying the connection, and that in turn wastes a lot of time.
> Jigdo should drop a server after two different sets of two attempts per
> set which still fail to connect, and then go on to the next server in
> the list.

What I like about jigdo is that it only needs to download what's
changed. If you have a copy of the original F8 ISO (for example), you
can mount it, and it won't try and download those packages that exist
there, only the updated packages. It will copy locally whatever it can
before starting the download phase. So, if you have an F8 ISO that you
downloaded via BT, you only have to download the updates to create your
updated ISO image.

Yes. Jigdo has problems. It was designed to alleviate the load on the
hosting servers. Not to increase the download speed to the user. BT
acts similarly if you don't have a lot of clients actively seeding the
torrent. I'm sure the jigdo folks would love to get input on how to
improve their design to increase throughput to the users as well. Part
of that might be to assign a higher round robin priority to those update
servers with higher bandwidth (measured as download speed to the client)
and have the client prefer those systems over the slower ones. You have
to trade that off against which servers are out of date and which
servers are overused (I saw this already being done via a limited number
of FTP users on those sites being downloaded from via ftp. I too saw
vastly different download speeds based on which servers were being used,
but my complete download happened in about 4 hours using the original F8
ISO as my starting point (for the x86_64 ISO). YMMV

> Bill Davidsen wrote:
>> Does anyone have a bittorrent link for the Unity spins? I get
>> 3-3.5Mbit speed with torrent, and 200-400Kbit with that jigdo thing.
>> Last month I ran for five days and was still missing 27 parts, so it's
>> kind of off my list of usefully fast methods, using no parallelism at
>> all, and not letting users contribute to the supply.
>>
>

--
Kevin J. Cummings
kjchome@rcn.com
cummings@kjchome.homeip.net
cummings@kjc386.framingham.ma.us
Registered Linux User #1232 (http://counter.li.org)

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Old 02-17-2008, 03:25 AM
"Kam Leo"
 
Default Fedora Unity release

On Feb 16, 2008 6:05 PM, Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote:
> Does anyone have a bittorrent link for the Unity spins? I get 3-3.5Mbit
> speed with torrent, and 200-400Kbit with that jigdo thing. Last month I
> ran for five days and was still missing 27 parts, so it's kind of off my
> list of usefully fast methods, using no parallelism at all, and not
> letting users contribute to the supply.
>
> --
> Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>

The torrent speed that you obtained must of happened within the first
month of the distro's availability. My past experience with Fedora
Unity is that not long after release there were too few clients to
make a torrent useful. (Remember torrent clients only have to give
back 4 K-bits/sec of bandwidth ) You are better off using jigdo.

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Old 02-17-2008, 12:52 PM
David Timms
 
Default Fedora Unity release

Bill Davidsen wrote:
Does anyone have a bittorrent link for the Unity spins? I get 3-3.5Mbit
speed with torrent, and 200-400Kbit with that jigdo thing. Last month I
ran for five days and was still missing 27 parts, so it's kind of off my
list of usefully fast methods, using no parallelism at all, and not
letting users contribute to the supply.

How fast can you download from your nearest fedora mirror ?

Did you supply jigdo with pre-downloaded eg Fedora 8 {mounted}, and your
fedora 8 - updates yum folder ?


I have used pyjigdo, gave my predownload locations, and nearest mirror,
and the jigdo process was done in less than 1 hour.


DaveT.

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Old 02-17-2008, 01:55 PM
Bill Davidsen
 
Default Fedora Unity release

Robert L Cochran wrote:

I use jigdo myself and like the way it pulls packages from a list of
servers, so that no one server is stressed with a long download
connection that might be dropped or which might be so busy you can't log
onto it.

The really bad thing about jigdo is that it isn't smart enough by
default to notice that one or more servers consistently have connection
problems, and it keeps hitting them again and again in round-robin
fashion retrying the connection, and that in turn wastes a lot of time.
Jigdo should drop a server after two different sets of two attempts per
set which still fail to connect, and then go on to the next server in
the list.


I would say there are a number of problems with the whole concept.


1 - The downloads do not run in parallel, so the time to download is the
sum of all the download times, rather than the sum divided by the number
of servers.


2 - any slow servers get totally hammered. If a server is running into
bandwidth limits, new requests come in before the first ones finish,
raising the load and further reducing bandwidth to any given client.
With bittorrent the number of data providers goes up as the load goes
up, and because the client will pull more data from the faster servers
the average transfer rate to the client is higher.


3 - there doesn't seem to be any benefit to the server for jigdo vs.
bittorrent, the load changes from a steady light load to a bursty heavy
load per client request. It's not obvious that the same servers serving
bittorrent would be any more loaded under any number of clients, but the
bandwidth needed would be reduced under heavy load as clients provide
part of the outgoing bandwidth.



That's my read on it, when a release first comes out the servers get
hammered harder with jigdo than bittorrent. The sole advantage of jigdo
is use of protocols which are more likely to be permitted through
firewalls, and conceptually allowing a server to have only part of the
larger image taking up disk space. I doubt that any machine which can't
hold the whole image should be a server anyway, that's just my take on
it, opinion rather than fact.


--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot

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Old 02-17-2008, 02:06 PM
Tom Horsley
 
Default Fedora Unity release

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 09:55:55 -0500
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote:

> That's my read on it, when a release first comes out the servers get
> hammered harder with jigdo than bittorrent. The sole advantage of jigdo
> is use of protocols which are more likely to be permitted through
> firewalls, and conceptually allowing a server to have only part of the
> larger image taking up disk space. I doubt that any machine which can't
> hold the whole image should be a server anyway, that's just my take on
> it, opinion rather than fact.

Yep. I think jigdo will be ready for prime time when it can use
bittorrent as a download protocol, and all users who chose to do
so can seed the rpms they already have downloaded and cached on
their machine. That gets the advantages of both, and since "popular"
rpms are (by the definition of popular) installed on more machines,
the rpms in the greatest demand will also have the greatest supply
of torrent servers, thus giving the best of both worlds (and no, I'm
not volunteering to do any of the work to make this happen - this
is just my fantasy :-).

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Old 02-17-2008, 02:11 PM
Bill Davidsen
 
Default Fedora Unity release

Kam Leo wrote:

On Feb 16, 2008 6:05 PM, Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote:

Does anyone have a bittorrent link for the Unity spins? I get 3-3.5Mbit
speed with torrent, and 200-400Kbit with that jigdo thing. Last month I
ran for five days and was still missing 27 parts, so it's kind of off my
list of usefully fast methods, using no parallelism at all, and not
letting users contribute to the supply.

--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>


The torrent speed that you obtained must of happened within the first
month of the distro's availability. My past experience with Fedora
Unity is that not long after release there were too few clients to
make a torrent useful. (Remember torrent clients only have to give
back 4 K-bits/sec of bandwidth ) You are better off using jigdo.

The torrent speed was early last week, maybe the 12th, using a live CD
boot on a Windows machine. Download of the original FC8 DVD iso image
ran up to 385KB/s according to the NIC speed applet, average was about
320KB/s over the total download. Pulling 9Alpha1 (a) took five days to
complete, (b) after day three I had to keep telling it to retry getting
all the things it didn't get, and (c) I didn't contribute anything to
the distribution, meaning that every client has to pull every byte from
the server.


I don't know where that 4K giveback comes from, maybe that's the lowest
you can set or something, I normally set max_upload_rate to 400 day and
800 night, so I don't impact outgoing bandwidth.


I can't see any way I'm better using jigdo, slower for me and more bytes
coming from the server... worst combination of features. See my earlier
post this morning on comparing the methods. Jigdo may be a good way to
create a new image when only a few bytes change, to get a full image it
just does a poor job for both the client and server.


--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot

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Old 02-17-2008, 02:15 PM
Bill Davidsen
 
Default Fedora Unity release

Tom Horsley wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 09:55:55 -0500
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote:

That's my read on it, when a release first comes out the servers get
hammered harder with jigdo than bittorrent. The sole advantage of jigdo
is use of protocols which are more likely to be permitted through
firewalls, and conceptually allowing a server to have only part of the
larger image taking up disk space. I doubt that any machine which can't
hold the whole image should be a server anyway, that's just my take on
it, opinion rather than fact.


Yep. I think jigdo will be ready for prime time when it can use
bittorrent as a download protocol, and all users who chose to do
so can seed the rpms they already have downloaded and cached on
their machine. That gets the advantages of both, and since "popular"
rpms are (by the definition of popular) installed on more machines,
the rpms in the greatest demand will also have the greatest supply
of torrent servers, thus giving the best of both worlds (and no, I'm
not volunteering to do any of the work to make this happen - this
is just my fantasy :-).

I share it. Even if the servers just offered bittorrent for the whole
image download and then used jigdo for image to image upgrades it would
make things better for the servers, less load when something new comes out.


--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot

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Old 02-17-2008, 02:17 PM
Robert L Cochran
 
Default Fedora Unity release

I think you have bigger problem with jigdo than I do. Five days to get
Alpha 9? I got the whole thing in about 16 hours using jigdo. I thought
that was slow for a DVD, but it worked. Of course, now I need to
actually use Alpha 9. But I'm booked to the eyeballs for for the next
week and will be lucky to do this on Saturday.

Bob Cochran




Bill Davidsen wrote:
> Kam Leo wrote:
>> On Feb 16, 2008 6:05 PM, Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote:
>>> Does anyone have a bittorrent link for the Unity spins? I get 3-3.5Mbit
>>> speed with torrent, and 200-400Kbit with that jigdo thing. Last month I
>>> ran for five days and was still missing 27 parts, so it's kind of
>>> off my
>>> list of usefully fast methods, using no parallelism at all, and not
>>> letting users contribute to the supply.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
>>
>> The torrent speed that you obtained must of happened within the first
>> month of the distro's availability. My past experience with Fedora
>> Unity is that not long after release there were too few clients to
>> make a torrent useful. (Remember torrent clients only have to give
>> back 4 K-bits/sec of bandwidth ) You are better off using jigdo.
>>
> The torrent speed was early last week, maybe the 12th, using a live CD
> boot on a Windows machine. Download of the original FC8 DVD iso image
> ran up to 385KB/s according to the NIC speed applet, average was about
> 320KB/s over the total download. Pulling 9Alpha1 (a) took five days to
> complete, (b) after day three I had to keep telling it to retry
> getting all the things it didn't get, and (c) I didn't contribute
> anything to the distribution, meaning that every client has to pull
> every byte from the server.
>
> I don't know where that 4K giveback comes from, maybe that's the
> lowest you can set or something, I normally set max_upload_rate to 400
> day and 800 night, so I don't impact outgoing bandwidth.
>
> I can't see any way I'm better using jigdo, slower for me and more
> bytes coming from the server... worst combination of features. See my
> earlier post this morning on comparing the methods. Jigdo may be a
> good way to create a new image when only a few bytes change, to get a
> full image it just does a poor job for both the client and server.
>

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