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Old 08-29-2011, 11:36 PM
"Peter G. "
 
Default I think we need a discussion

Fernando Cassia wrote:

> Google is the best example... they
> change features, move user interface elements around without any
> questions to the users, and remove features just because they can.
And what is most frustrating is that there is no way to talk to them. Any effort
at assistance or input results in the user being directed to a user forum to
discuss with other users. What good is that supposed to do? :-)

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Old 08-30-2011, 05:13 AM
Fernando Cassia
 
Default I think we need a discussion

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 20:34, Peter G. <pgueckel@gmail.com> wrote:
> the most evolved being xfde and lxde.

XFDE is a nice lightweight desktop environment. LXDE on the contrary
is user-hostile when you attempt to customize it. I've recently tried
changing from XFDE to LXDE due to alleged lower memory footprint and
found the user-hostile configuration and under-developed features too
big of an annoyance. I'm going back to XFDE. LXDE lists for instance a
"Trash can" as something in its "to do" list. How inmature is a
desktop environment without a trash can functionality? (I just mention
one that comes to mind, there are countless other shortcomings in LXDE
that I ran across that are inexcusable in 2011)...

FC
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Old 08-30-2011, 05:34 AM
Joe Zeff
 
Default I think we need a discussion

On 08/29/2011 10:13 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> XFDE is a nice lightweight desktop environment.

I'm not sure I've ever heard of it. Are you sure you don't mean XFCE?
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Old 08-30-2011, 05:39 AM
Sam Sharpe
 
Default I think we need a discussion

On 30 August 2011 06:34, Joe Zeff <joe@zeff.us> wrote:
> On 08/29/2011 10:13 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
>> XFDE is a nice lightweight desktop environment.
>
> I'm not sure I've ever heard of it. *Are you sure you don't mean XFCE?

I thought we were talking about XPDE: http://kylixapps.narod.ru/

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Old 08-30-2011, 05:42 AM
Fernando Cassia
 
Default I think we need a discussion

XFCE )

sorry for the typo...

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 02:34, Joe Zeff <joe@zeff.us> wrote:
> On 08/29/2011 10:13 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
>> XFDE is a nice lightweight desktop environment.
>
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Old 08-30-2011, 11:01 AM
Stefano Cavallari
 
Default I think we need a discussion

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 10:08 PM, David L. Gehrt <dlg@inanity.net> wrote:

> What this seems to imply is that in the future the mainline Linux UI will be
> characterized features *imposed, and by *lack of flexibility. *This *lack of
> flexibility means that users are presented with a computing environment with
> features thought desirable by developers *and which provide little or no way
> for *users to modify *their computing *environment in *ways that *meet their
> needs and preferences.

My impression is that often interfaces are designed for "stupid" users
rather than being stupid-compatible.
This way the user have a very big leap in front of himself, and never
have the chance to become an advanced user.
Some of my experience in computing comes by wondering "what does this
option do?" and by discovering interfaces.
I think that this approach of making interfaces not only simple, but
also not powerful, is detrimental to users, especially when they have
to troubleshoot things and have the only option to "open a terminal"
or "call a friend".
Sometime an option more can confuse a user, or make it an expert in
the long run.

Stefano Cavallari
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Old 08-30-2011, 04:26 PM
Ranjan Maitra
 
Default I think we need a discussion

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 00:13:01 -0500 Fernando Cassia <fcassia@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 20:34, Peter G. <pgueckel@gmail.com> wrote:
> > the most evolved being xfde and lxde.
>
> XFDE is a nice lightweight desktop environment. LXDE on the contrary
> is user-hostile when you attempt to customize it. I've recently tried
> changing from XFDE to LXDE due to alleged lower memory footprint and
> found the user-hostile configuration and under-developed features too
> big of an annoyance. I'm going back to XFDE. LXDE lists for instance a
> "Trash can" as something in its "to do" list. How inmature is a
> desktop environment without a trash can functionality? (I just mention
> one that comes to mind, there are countless other shortcomings in LXDE
> that I ran across that are inexcusable in 2011)...

While agreeing that XFCE does a good job, I would not be so harsh on
LXDE. This project is far behind XFCE in terms of years also.
Additionally, it all depends on who volunteers to help. It would be
better if the LXDE developers were a bit more responsive, and if
documentation were more useful to people wanting to develop, but they
are doing everybody a favor, and they can do so much, that is it.

Having said that, the Fedora LXDE maintainer/packager (Christoph
Wickert) is a great help, and usually responds within hours. Try the
Fedora LXDE mailing list at lxde@lists.fedoraproject.org.

Does a linux user really care for a Trash can? Whatever happened to
rm -rf. Sure, and trusty, and nothing gets left behind....

Best wishes,
Ranjan
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Old 08-30-2011, 04:47 PM
Tom Horsley
 
Default I think we need a discussion

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:26:59 -0500
Ranjan Maitra wrote:

> Does a linux user really care for a Trash can?

Not me, especially not one that conforms to the insanely
cryptic freedesktop.org trash standards.

Personally I use the simple window manager FVWM, and I use
it with my own, built from scratch, .fvwmrc file that doesn't
get changed out from under me in every release.

However, on each new release, I am constantly panting around
after gnome trying to discover what new daemons gnome programs
rely upon so I can start them in my .xsession file.

(The gnome developers appear to have the philosophy:
"never call a subroutine when dbus communication with a
separate daemon can be substituted, and never start a daemon
on demand when it can be running 24/7 instead even if
you only need it once a week." :-).
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Old 08-30-2011, 07:50 PM
stan
 
Default I think we need a discussion

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:47:19 -0400
Tom Horsley <horsley1953@gmail.com> wrote:

> Personally I use the simple window manager FVWM, and I use
> it with my own, built from scratch, .fvwmrc file that doesn't
> get changed out from under me in every release.

Would you be willing to post that configuration file? Or at least the
part of it that won't be a security compromise for you?
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Old 08-30-2011, 08:47 PM
Ranjan Maitra
 
Default I think we need a discussion

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:47:19 -0500 Tom Horsley <horsley1953@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:26:59 -0500
> Ranjan Maitra wrote:
>
> > Does a linux user really care for a Trash can?
>
> Not me, especially not one that conforms to the insanely
> cryptic freedesktop.org trash standards.
>
> Personally I use the simple window manager FVWM, and I use
> it with my own, built from scratch, .fvwmrc file that doesn't
> get changed out from under me in every release.
>
> However, on each new release, I am constantly panting around
> after gnome trying to discover what new daemons gnome programs
> rely upon so I can start them in my .xsession file.
>
> (The gnome developers appear to have the philosophy:
> "never call a subroutine when dbus communication with a
> separate daemon can be substituted, and never start a daemon
> on demand when it can be running 24/7 instead even if
> you only need it once a week." :-).

Hi Tom,

I salute you for your perseverance in sticking to FVWM. I did so, too
but finally gave up in 2007 in favor of XFCE. In late 2009, I switched
to LXDE.

I gave up simply because it became increasingly difficult, but not
impossible perhaps, to keep track of these new daemons. And I am not a
particularly sophisticated user, wanting my computer to actually keep
resources available in order to work for me:-) Also, I wanted to
popularize linux amongst my students, and it does not make any sense to
have them do something so totally different from what I was doing.
Unless someone gives you a hand-me-down fvwm, it can be quite
forbidding. Also, most people will not change a thing, because the
simple act of doing something new is forbidding to them, so burned are
they by their Windoze experience.

I have found both XFCE and LXDE to be fairly adequate for my needs.
LXDE is particular is more configurable, just as like fvwm. Sometimes, I
program some additional things I want, other times I get them from
looking around. (This mailing list has been incredibly helpful to me,
also.)

Personally, I think the "base" of any distribution should be
low-resources and functional. LXDE may perhaps have been a far more
evolved product if some distribution had adopted it as its default. I
look forward to a distribution which has good number of packages, etc
in the repos, but also has a low-resource philosophy.

Best wishes,
Ranjan

Best wishes,
Ranjan


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