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Old 08-08-2011, 06:55 AM
Paul Allen Newell
 
Default html on Fedora -- looking for "where to go"

Community:

I have @330 htm pages that display wonderfully on Win XP under 4.01
Strict. No errors per w3C validator.

They won't even come close to proper display on Fedora 14. I can get
them validated successfully on F14 through w3c Validator, but I am
seeing error console reports in Firefox about "such-and-such function is
not defined". The weird part is that it only picks out selective
functions to not find in the *.js script, other functions in the *.js
script do not generate errors.

I did a search in Bugzilla for Firefox and multiple permutations of what
I thought the error was and didn't see anything.

I am looking for suggestions as to where to start digging on this one as
I don't have anything worth considering to be a bug at this point. I am
hard-pressed to believe that Windows XP is okay and Fedora is not on the
same *.htm" page ... but that's all I can see at this point.

Thanks in advance,
Paul

ps: the reason there is no attachment with this query is that I don't
have anything clean enough to present and, if an initial query to this
list doesn't work, I will try to do surgery to come up with an example
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:42 AM
Andras Simon
 
Default html on Fedora -- looking for "where to go"

2011/8/8, Paul Allen Newell <pnewell@cs.cmu.edu>:
> Community:
>
> I have @330 htm pages that display wonderfully on Win XP under 4.01
> Strict. No errors per w3C validator.
>
> They won't even come close to proper display on Fedora 14. I can get
> them validated successfully on F14 through w3c Validator, but I am
> seeing error console reports in Firefox about "such-and-such function is
> not defined". The weird part is that it only picks out selective
> functions to not find in the *.js script, other functions in the *.js
> script do not generate errors.

w3c's html validator is unlikely to signal problems with your
javascript (and no validator could if the problem is not a syntactic
one).

> I did a search in Bugzilla for Firefox and multiple permutations of what
> I thought the error was and didn't see anything.
>
> I am looking for suggestions as to where to start digging on this one as
> I don't have anything worth considering to be a bug at this point. I am
> hard-pressed to believe that Windows XP is okay and Fedora is not on the
> same *.htm" page ... but that's all I can see at this point.

It's probably not a Win XP vs Fedora but an IE vs Firefox question.
Have you tried FF on Win XP? Or other browsers on Fedora?

Andras
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:19 AM
Tim
 
Default html on Fedora -- looking for "where to go"

On Mon, 2011-08-08 at 09:42 +0200, Andras Simon wrote:
> w3c's html validator is unlikely to signal problems with your
> javascript (and no validator could if the problem is not a syntactic
> one).

I'll go further and say that it won't. It's not just unlikely. It
looks at HTML not JavaScript. It might check whether you've called
JavaScript in a syntactically correct way (e.g. that you've put your
OnMouse-whatever's into the right part of the HTML elements), but not
the functions that are in your JavaScript.

Their HTML validator checks HTML. Their CSS validator checks CSS. They
don't have a validator for JavaScript, and I've not heard of anyone that
does (which goes some way to explaining the huge amount of crap
JavaScript on the WWW that just doesn't work in my browser - because
there is no standard test for JavaScript, and authors just dream up
whatever seems to work on the browser they're playing with). There are
standardised ECMA scripts, but browsers do their own thing with their
own scripting, and authors are still stuck playing that silly game of
having to code differently for specific browsers.

Additionally, if the original poster wants more eyes looking at their
problem, they really need to supply some samples of the problems.

As others have said, it's most likely a browser issue. JavaScript
nearly always is (that, or an authoring error). There are news groups
that deal with web authoring that might be your best bet, but put on
your flameproof suit, they'll be far more critical than I've been.


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Old 08-08-2011, 09:37 PM
Paul Allen Newell
 
Default html on Fedora -- looking for "where to go"

On 8/8/2011 12:42 AM, Andras Simon wrote:
>
> w3c's html validator is unlikely to signal problems with your
> javascript (and no validator could if the problem is not a syntactic
> one).

Andras:

Thanks for reply.

Regarding the validator, your comment was/is understood before I wrote
my email ... I mentioned it only to ensure that I wasn't tripping up on
bad html that validator would pick up. Using 4.01 Strict, if it matters.
> It's probably not a Win XP vs Fedora but an IE vs Firefox question.
> Have you tried FF on Win XP? Or other browsers on Fedora?
>
> Andras
Everything is in Firefox on Win XP and F14 (don't want cliched apples
and oranges problem by dealing with IE). Both systems are running
Firefox 3.6.18 (Windows XP is 32bit, F14 is both 32 and 64).

Paul


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Old 08-08-2011, 09:42 PM
Paul Allen Newell
 
Default html on Fedora -- looking for "where to go"

On 8/8/2011 4:12 AM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
>
> Start digging in your Javascript code. The fact that Firefox is
> complaining about various Javascript functions is you big, honking clue.
>

Sam:

Thanks for reply.

As mentioned in a prior response to Andras, since WinXP and F14 are both
using Firefox 3.6.18, I am still looking for the big honking clue about
the difference.

I am getting prepared to create a simple test case with the hopes that
the problem will show itself as I strip down the actual html /
javascript (I was really hoping there was going to be a "oh, you need to
such-and-such" suggestion ... I figured it was worth the try asking)

Paul

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Old 08-08-2011, 09:46 PM
Paul Allen Newell
 
Default html on Fedora -- looking for "where to go"

On 8/8/2011 4:19 AM, Tim wrote:
> .
> As others have said, it's most likely a browser issue. JavaScript
> nearly always is (that, or an authoring error). There are news groups
> that deal with web authoring that might be your best bet, but put on
> your flameproof suit, they'll be far more critical than I've been.
>
Tim:

Thanks for reply ... I have the flameproof suit ready when needed (plus
plate and silverware if eating crow is necessary)

Paul

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Old 08-08-2011, 10:30 PM
Joel Rees
 
Default html on Fedora -- looking for "where to go"

Something is still

On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 6:37 AM, Paul Allen Newell <pnewell@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
> On 8/8/2011 12:42 AM, Andras Simon wrote:
>>
>> w3c's html *validator is unlikely to signal problems with your
>> javascript (and no validator could if the problem is not a syntactic
>> one).
>
> Andras:
>
> Thanks for reply.
>
> Regarding the validator, your comment was/is understood before I wrote
> my email ...

Not quite, perhaps.

> I mentioned it only to ensure that I wasn't tripping up on
> bad html that validator would pick up. Using 4.01 Strict, if it matters.

Well, outside the fact that even strictly standard html provides hooks
for conformant ways to add non-conformant tags, yeah, conformance
matters.

The web standards have been open-ended from the beginning on purpose.
It's a kind of hidden sub-text in the discussions, one of those
proverbial elephants in the room. (Confused me for a long time, too.)

>> It's probably not a Win XP vs Fedora but an IE vs Firefox question.
>> Have you tried FF on Win XP? Or other browsers on Fedora?
>>
>> Andras
> Everything is in Firefox on Win XP and F14 (don't want cliched apples
> and oranges problem by dealing with IE). Both systems are running
> Firefox 3.6.18 (Windows XP is 32bit, F14 is both 32 and 64).
>
> Paul

Direct-X?

Even two distinct installs of Fedora 14 are likely to have distinct
sets of libraries installed, and the java/ECMAscript interface to the
OS libraries is a bit fuzzy.

It goes without saying that you must have checked that you have the
same set of add-ons loaded in each. Right?

Shoot. Without a look at your source code, I would be hard-pressed to
even suggest a proper forum for you among those that are dedicated to
the various ways to mix HTML, CSS, ECMAscript, server-side tech, and
so forth.

Joel Res
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:51 PM
Paul Allen Newell
 
Default html on Fedora -- looking for "where to go"

Joel:

Thanks for reply ... my answers(?) inline

On 8/8/2011 3:30 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>
>> Regarding the validator, your comment was/is understood before I wrote
>> my email ...
> Not quite, perhaps.

I am prepared to discover my understanding is not as good as I thought
it was (smile)

> Well, outside the fact that even strictly standard html provides hooks
> for conformant ways to add non-conformant tags, yeah, conformance
> matters.
>
> The web standards have been open-ended from the beginning on purpose.
> It's a kind of hidden sub-text in the discussions, one of those
> proverbial elephants in the room. (Confused me for a long time, too.)

I am being very careful to not include outside material and/or
non-conformant tags. Back and forth to the w3c docs to make sure I am
doing things correct. I might have missed something ... and that may be
the honking clue I am looking for ... but don't see it yet

> Direct-X?

Oh, groan, never thought of that ...

> Even two distinct installs of Fedora 14 are likely to have distinct
> sets of libraries installed, and the java/ECMAscript interface to the
> OS libraries is a bit fuzzy.
>
> It goes without saying that you must have checked that you have the
> same set of add-ons loaded in each. Right?

Remember I mentioned having the plate and silverware ready for potential
eating of crow ... well, of course I didn't check that and I am
preparing the crow.

Looking at WinXP, it has extensions Java Console 6.0.26 and Java Quick
Starter 1.0. It has plug-ins Java Deployment Toolkit 6.0.260.3 and Java
(tm) Platform SE6 U26 6.0.260.3. The Linux has nothing with the word
Java in it. Can I at least cook the crow or is this one that requires
"raw with feathers"?

I gotta dig to figure out what these items are and which are needed ...
I have this memory many years ago of accepting a java something for XP
Firefox and not thinking anything more about it

> Shoot. Without a look at your source code, I would be hard-pressed to
> even suggest a proper forum for you among those that are dedicated to
> the various ways to mix HTML, CSS, ECMAscript, server-side tech, and
> so forth.

As I mentioned before, I sent the original email to see if I missed
something obvious (and I think that paid off with your reply). My next
step was to create a test html/javascript to duplicate by reduction of
original (and make sure that I wasn't doing something dumb in my original).

Let me try looking at the add-ons and, if that doesn't do it, I will
create the example.

> Joel Res

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Old 08-08-2011, 11:11 PM
Joel Rees
 
Default html on Fedora -- looking for "where to go"

On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Paul Allen Newell <pnewell@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
> Joel:
>
> [...]
> As I mentioned before, I sent the original email to see if I missed
> something obvious (and I think that paid off with your reply). My next
> step was to create a test html/javascript to duplicate by reduction of
> original (and make sure that I wasn't doing something dumb in my original).
>
> Let me try looking at the add-ons and, if that doesn't do it, I will
> create the example.
>
>> Joel Res

Source code tastes much better than crow, anyway. 8-*

You're on the right track. Putting the examples together will probably
tell you which forum is best to ask at, if it doesn't pinpoint the
problems.

One point you might need to drag back out of the past, in spite of the
similarity in names, Java and Java/ECMAscript have only the barest of
historical connections. (Passed each other in a storm many years
ago.:^/)

Joel Rees
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:56 AM
Tim
 
Default html on Fedora -- looking for "where to go"

On Mon, 2011-08-08 at 19:01 -0400, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
> The browsers are probably exposing some OS specific resources to
> Javascript. When the Javascript can't find something OS specific that
> it's looking for, it dies.

Hence why relying on it is nearly always a bad idea. Sure, there's some
very basic commands that are probably going to work on most browsers.
But there's plenty of things that are only going to work on some
browsers, and they'll probably be the ones that that the author will try
to use (because that's how *luck* works).

Having said what I said earlier, about not knowing of any JavaScript
validators. I noticed some listed when Google searching for them,
afterwards. But I know nothing about whether they're reliable, in
themselves. And it's certainly not going to help when it comes to
issuing commands that can only work in some browsers.

The HTML war was fought long ago, and eventually came through with more
people willing to adhere to specifications. Though it's taken a hell of
a lot of convincing. And the WWW is more compatible with most things
now, than it was.

The JavaScript bitch fight has continued as scrum. Yes, some standards
were written long ago. But JavaScript was a proprietary baby. The
non-proprietary ECMA script /standard/ is barely mentioned (and lack of
proper validators hasn't helped). And browser writers have always
shovelled in there own special tricks, even more so with scripting than
they did with flat HTML. Not to mention expansion of features with
plug-ins (which some page authors just don't get that all plug-ins are
not available for all browsers, nor can some people install them, even
if available).

You need to learn about different types of browsers. For instance,
you're not too likely to be able to pop up other windows on a browser
running in a mobile phone. So coding up a convoluted site limits how it
can be used by the public, perhaps making it completely unusable.

For anybody dabbling with scripting, I'd advise trying to find out about
compatibilities (what's common, what's browser specific). And it'll be
almost unavoidable that you'll be doing lots of conditional scripting
for different browsers, because you'll probably want some of those
browser specific functions, having to work out two or three different
ways to do what you wanted to do.

You also lose out with search engines, if you depend on scripting to get
through your site. Most people find out about a site through a search
engine, it's not good to exclude yourself from that working.

I gave up attempting to work through the scripting nightmare / browser
war, long ago. My websites have no scripting.

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