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Old 07-14-2011, 08:41 PM
Aaron Konstam
 
Default Gnome 3 ~ Windows 8?

On Thu, 2011-07-14 at 12:53 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Frantisek Hanzlik <franta@hanzlici.cz> wrote:
> > Tim wrote:
> >> I don't... They all (Linux too) seem to be heading for being some sort
> >> of iPad clone. Being all the more inappropriate for trying to use a
> >> touch-screen type of interface, when you don't have a touch-screen.
> >>
> >> They're also being painful as far as multi-tasking is concerned.
> >> Wacking great big oversized GUIs for things, so you can't use two or
> >> three applications side by side. You have to window shuffle.
> >>
> >> Starting things from the icons on the desktop background, so you have to
> >> get your windows out of the way to get to the icons. Having to search
> >> for your program, because there isn't a structured menu (either one
> >> that's categorised, or one that doesn't keep re-arranging the order that
> >> things and jumbled together).
> >
> > This is exactly one what I think about Gnome 3 - maybe good for
> > PADs, but tedious for power desktop users with many installed and
> > simultaneously running apps.
> > Golden Gnome 2!
>
> Gnome 2 is now offically dead.
>
> Now, back to what I said earlier. YOU, the Linux user, have a CHOICE
> of desktop/window managers. YOU should avail yourself of this
> feature. If you want to 'resurect' Gnome2, you are more than welcome
> to. It is after all, GPL/LGPL licensed and you should be free to spin
> off whatever you want. However, do not expect the Gnome support team
> to help in your efforts.
>
> For all concerned: The goal behind some of the moves you folks see in
> desktops is to move more users to Linux vice 'that other stuff'. This
> means making things familiar to those folks. I really would like for
> the old projects to be continued for us older 'power users' and new
> desktops to be introduced for those who need/desire those features. I
> did not like what happened when Windows95 introduced the 'Start'
> button feature. Over the years, I grew used to this. I still think
> that the idea is 'stupid' but I now understand why this happened. And
> I was and remain a command line power guru.
>
> James McKenzie

I agree with you that Gnome2 is dead but someone has to explain why a
feature like holding the ALT key is necessary to power off in the User
Menu. It seems to me there was room in the original list for a Power off
option.

I think that there is general agreement among the majority of F15 users
other than the Gnome developers that there are aspects of Gnome3 that
are just plain screwy.
--
================================================== =====================
A gift of a flower will soon be made to you.
================================================== =====================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam@sbcglobal.net

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Old 07-14-2011, 09:18 PM
James McKenzie
 
Default Gnome 3 ~ Windows 8?

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Aaron Konstam <akonstam@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-07-14 at 12:53 -0700, James McKenzie wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Frantisek Hanzlik <franta@hanzlici.cz> wrote:
>> > Tim wrote:
>> >> I don't... *They all (Linux too) seem to be heading for being some sort
>> >> of iPad clone. *Being all the more inappropriate for trying to use a
>> >> touch-screen type of interface, when you don't have a touch-screen.
>> >>
>> >> They're also being painful as far as multi-tasking is concerned.
>> >> Wacking great big oversized GUIs for things, so you can't use two or
>> >> three applications side by side. *You have to window shuffle.
>> >>
>> >> Starting things from the icons on the desktop background, so you have to
>> >> get your windows out of the way to get to the icons. *Having to search
>> >> for your program, because there isn't a structured menu (either one
>> >> that's categorised, or one that doesn't keep re-arranging the order that
>> >> things and jumbled together).
>> >
>> > This is exactly one what I think about Gnome 3 - maybe good for
>> > PADs, but tedious for power desktop users with many installed and
>> > simultaneously running apps.
>> > Golden Gnome 2!
>>
>> Gnome 2 is now offically dead.
>>
>> Now, back to what I said earlier. *YOU, the Linux user, have a CHOICE
>> of desktop/window managers. *YOU should avail yourself of this
>> feature. *If you want to 'resurect' Gnome2, you are more than welcome
>> to. *It is after all, GPL/LGPL licensed and you should be free to spin
>> off whatever you want. *However, do not expect the Gnome support team
>> to help in your efforts.
>>
>> For all concerned: *The goal behind some of the moves you folks see in
>> desktops is to move more users to Linux vice 'that other stuff'. *This
>> means making things familiar to those folks. *I really would like for
>> the old projects to be continued for us older 'power users' and new
>> desktops to be introduced for those who need/desire those features. *I
>> did not like what happened when Windows95 introduced the 'Start'
>> button feature. *Over the years, I grew used to this. *I still think
>> that the idea is 'stupid' but I now understand why this happened. *And
>> I was and remain a command line power guru.
>>
>> James McKenzie
>
> I agree with you that Gnome2 is dead but someone has to explain why a
> feature like holding the ALT key is necessary to power off in the *User
> Menu. It seems to me there was room in the original list for a Power off
> option.
>
> I think that there is general agreement among the majority of F15 users
> other than the Gnome developers that there are aspects of Gnome3 that
> are just plain screwy.
This is definitely not one of those things that should exist. Maybe
the team feels that a new user would not understand what 'power off'
means. I would find that insulting as a new Linux user coming from
the other world. I think this is the wrong way to deal with this. I
have not had the time to look at Gnome3 yet, but this makes me less
likely to do so from an engineering/quality assurance/user experience
view point. BTW, do they have a 'do you really want to do this'
dialog or does Gnome3 go immediately into power down mode?

James
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:38 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default Gnome 3 ~ Windows 8?

On 07/14/2011 09:53 PM, James McKenzie wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Frantisek Hanzlik<franta@hanzlici.cz> wrote:
>> Tim wrote:

> Now, back to what I said earlier. YOU, the Linux user, have a CHOICE
> of desktop/window managers.

> YOU should avail yourself of this
> feature. If you want to 'resurect' Gnome2, you are more than welcome
> to. It is after all, GPL/LGPL licensed and you should be free to spin
> off whatever you want. However, do not expect the Gnome support team
> to help in your efforts.

YOU, the Gnome devs, should learn that you have turned the product we
loved into an entirely different product and are not addressing us -
your users' demands - anymore.

YOU, the Gnome devs, have left us - your user-base - Your liberty, your
choice, your

As Alan said earlier in this thread, may-be Gnome 3.2 will have matured
into a shape it's worth looking into again, may-be you will have found a
significantly large user-base, may-be you will have vanished.

One thing is sure: Your new user-base will not be your current (old)
user-base.


> For all concerned: The goal behind some of the moves you folks see in
> desktops is to move more users to Linux vice 'that other stuff'.

I do not share this opinion - It's naive wishful thinking, IMO:

I'd expect oeople, who are attracted by the kind of GUI, Gnome 3 tries
to implement, to choose the original, i.e. Apple, Microsoft or Google's
products over Gnome 3 (which means them not ot use Linux).

Ralf
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Old 07-15-2011, 02:29 AM
James McKenzie
 
Default Gnome 3 ~ Windows 8?

On 7/14/11 3:38 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 07/14/2011 09:53 PM, James McKenzie wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Frantisek Hanzlik<franta@hanzlici.cz> wrote:
>>> Tim wrote:
>> Now, back to what I said earlier. YOU, the Linux user, have a CHOICE
>> of desktop/window managers.
>> YOU should avail yourself of this
>> feature. If you want to 'resurect' Gnome2, you are more than welcome
>> to. It is after all, GPL/LGPL licensed and you should be free to spin
>> off whatever you want. However, do not expect the Gnome support team
>> to help in your efforts.
> YOU, the Gnome devs, should learn that you have turned the product we
> loved into an entirely different product and are not addressing us -
> your users' demands - anymore.
If you even THINK that the current breed of developers CARE about what
the user base wants/needs, you are living in dream-land. I work with a
product that had a HUGE installed user base that ran nothing but SUN
Solaris. The company decided that they would go after a non-existent
Windows Server user base. They lost about 1/2 of their user base and
they are not coming back, ever. However, this company now has MORE
installed copies of their product with massive licensing/support
income. I stand by what I said based on PAST experience. You can
leave, the developers don't care. They want the 5% that say "I don't
like xxxx operating system and would move to Linux but it is so damn
hard to work with". That will definitely increase the number of users
that will work with their product. They don't want to re-learn how to
work their computers. I know that WE don't like that, but we now know
who is the target audience. And like you, I'm upset that Gnome2 was
dropped like a rock. That means one less OPTION to select. However,
the developers might feel they can only support one windowing system.

James

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Old 07-15-2011, 03:23 AM
James McKenzie
 
Default Gnome 3 ~ Windows 8?

On 7/13/11 11:36 AM, Tim wrote:
> I see the sense in pushing the boundaries for high end computing. I
> don't see the sense in making low end computing require high end
> hardware. What's low end computing? Email, web browsing, not playing
> video games. It's just gross inefficiency to require a 4 GHz computer
> to do that.
>
As I go through this rather lengthy thread I find a few more things to
comment about.

I agree with this comment. You should not need a multi-core system just
to read mail and browse the web. Adding a high end desktop system to
this is aggravating and a nuisance. That is why some folks recommend
the 'lower end' windowing systems that do the basic things. I've seen
people state that Gnome is needed to automount drives. Never found that
to be the case when I was running RedHat 7/8 or 9. However, I could be
totally incorrect. The point is that we should not saddle folks with a
high end front end if their computer just cannot provide the
horsepower. This also extends to the Kernel and other items. I don't
have a system with 1 GB of memory, nor will it ever get there for
running Linux. It is 12 years old and still runs. That is what some
folks want. They don't want to add to the bottom lines of the likes of
Dell/Gateway/HP and of course, indirectly, Microsoft. Now, what can I
use on an IBM Thinkpad A22p/PIII 833/384MB/60GB hard drive for a front
end? Sounds like GNOME3 and KDE4 are out of the question if I want any
sort of functionality with the system.

James


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Old 07-15-2011, 11:48 AM
Tim
 
Default Gnome 3 ~ Windows 8?

Tim:
>> I see the sense in pushing the boundaries for high end computing. I
>> don't see the sense in making low end computing require high end
>> hardware. What's low end computing? Email, web browsing, not playing
>> video games. It's just gross inefficiency to require a 4 GHz computer
>> to do that.

James McKenzie:
> I agree with this comment. You should not need a multi-core system just
> to read mail and browse the web. Adding a high end desktop system to
> this is aggravating and a nuisance. That is why some folks recommend
> the 'lower end' windowing systems that do the basic things.

I think it's getting close to the point where the default desktop for
Fedora ought not to be Gnome, and the flashier desktops ought to be the
additional try them out options, rather than the lightweight ones.

> I've seen people state that Gnome is needed to automount drives.
> Never found that to be the case when I was running RedHat 7/8 or 9.

Over time, *what* did the automounting has changed. Somewhere along the
way HAL did it, and some of those other desktops didn't appear to make
use of it.

Likewise, when I tried using a lightweight desktop, some time ago, I got
no sound. Because the console kit helper that assigned hardware to a
user wasn't part of that desktop's equation.

It seems to have got to the point that to use new Linux, you need a new
computer. That does rather preclude new users, who will get a new
computer with windows.

--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.



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Old 07-15-2011, 11:48 AM
Tim
 
Default Gnome 3 ~ Windows 8?

Tim:
>> I see the sense in pushing the boundaries for high end computing. I
>> don't see the sense in making low end computing require high end
>> hardware. What's low end computing? Email, web browsing, not playing
>> video games. It's just gross inefficiency to require a 4 GHz computer
>> to do that.

James McKenzie:
> I agree with this comment. You should not need a multi-core system just
> to read mail and browse the web. Adding a high end desktop system to
> this is aggravating and a nuisance. That is why some folks recommend
> the 'lower end' windowing systems that do the basic things.

I think it's getting close to the point where the default desktop for
Fedora ought not to be Gnome, and the flashier desktops ought to be the
additional try them out options, rather than the lightweight ones.

> I've seen people state that Gnome is needed to automount drives.
> Never found that to be the case when I was running RedHat 7/8 or 9.

Over time, *what* did the automounting has changed. Somewhere along the
way HAL did it, and some of those other desktops didn't appear to make
use of it.

Likewise, when I tried using a lightweight desktop, some time ago, I got
no sound. Because the console kit helper that assigned hardware to a
user wasn't part of that desktop's equation.

It seems to have got to the point that to use new Linux, you need a new
computer. That does rather preclude new users, who will get a new
computer with windows.

--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.



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Old 07-15-2011, 11:55 AM
Heinz Diehl
 
Default Gnome 3 ~ Windows 8?

On 15.07.2011, James McKenzie wrote:

> If you even THINK that the current breed of developers CARE about what
> the user base wants/needs, you are living in dream-land.

As you mentioned before, all is about choices. If there's no interest in what
the user base needs, well, the user base will move away, resulting in less and less feedback,
which lets developing get more and more difficult. Bugs remain undiscovered, features get less testing,
and so on.

In case of Gnome 3, I guess it it won't collect much new users over from Wind*ws or Apple
related systems. Think logically: those who try will probably have a great optical experience,
but when things are unstable, unreliable and buggy and you have work to be done, you'll quickly move away
and blame "the difficult Linux" or whatever for the bad experience. Not to mention what such a user will
write if anybody is asking how Gnome 3 can be an alternative to let's say Wind*ws 7, and how many users
are just too busy to try it by themselves after a lot of negative publicity...

I for myself have been a big Gnome fan over a lot of years, and have been using it both at home and at work.
I also have been a big LXDE and xmonad fan, which runs on all of my laptops. Not a big thing for me,
I'll drop F15, and when F16 comes out, I'll stick with LXDE. It simply works and does not want to convince some
Wind*ws users that Linux is the better choice...




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Old 07-15-2011, 11:55 AM
Heinz Diehl
 
Default Gnome 3 ~ Windows 8?

On 15.07.2011, James McKenzie wrote:

> If you even THINK that the current breed of developers CARE about what
> the user base wants/needs, you are living in dream-land.

As you mentioned before, all is about choices. If there's no interest in what
the user base needs, well, the user base will move away, resulting in less and less feedback,
which lets developing get more and more difficult. Bugs remain undiscovered, features get less testing,
and so on.

In case of Gnome 3, I guess it it won't collect much new users over from Wind*ws or Apple
related systems. Think logically: those who try will probably have a great optical experience,
but when things are unstable, unreliable and buggy and you have work to be done, you'll quickly move away
and blame "the difficult Linux" or whatever for the bad experience. Not to mention what such a user will
write if anybody is asking how Gnome 3 can be an alternative to let's say Wind*ws 7, and how many users
are just too busy to try it by themselves after a lot of negative publicity...

I for myself have been a big Gnome fan over a lot of years, and have been using it both at home and at work.
I also have been a big LXDE and xmonad fan, which runs on all of my laptops. Not a big thing for me,
I'll drop F15, and when F16 comes out, I'll stick with LXDE. It simply works and does not want to convince some
Wind*ws users that Linux is the better choice...




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Old 07-15-2011, 11:58 AM
Tom Horsley
 
Default Gnome 3 ~ Windows 8?

On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:18:40 +0930
Tim wrote:

> Over time, *what* did the automounting has changed. Somewhere along the
> way HAL did it, and some of those other desktops didn't appear to make
> use of it.

And now HAL is a dinosaur and if you try to ask about using it,
people look at you like you have lobsters crawling out of you ears
(FYI: udev is now the king).

I love the way subsystems come and go like cosmology theories.
One day a theory will be hailed as the one true explanation for
the entire universe, the next day it will be scoffed at as a
more "elegant" theory replaces it. (And none of them had any
way to be tested for validity :-).
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