FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Redhat > Fedora User

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 06-20-2011, 04:53 PM
Tim
 
Default Paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3

On Mon, 2011-06-20 at 10:44 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> There is a paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3 which I have not
> seen discussed on this list.
>
> Gnome2 is totally mouse oriented. Everything you want to do you do by
> moving the mouse and clicking. Obviously I am rerring to Gnome2 itself
> not applications.
>
> However, in Gnome3 a large fraction of actions have been moved to the
> keyboard.

Found another can of worms to open? ;-)

It just seems another oddity. Using the mouse, or other pointing
device, was seen as making things easier for the non-computer literate,
who distinctly hated typing for the command line interface. Yet, now,
we're going to make them use the keyboard, albeit for a command line
interface in a GUI...

Linux has recently been pushed as "must get it onto ordinary desktops,"
but who for? (With RHEL and its ilk for corporate, Fedora (and its ilk)
for home.)

Is a corporation going to want to spend $100 per graphics card per PC,
so that the default Gnome 3 actually works, or are they going to
continue to only want to put in the $20 graphics card? (That just won't
work with the new all-singing, all-dancing, Gnome 3.) So there's the
next RHEL with Gnome shot down in flames.

Likewise, the *average* home user faces the same quandary, and most
people buy underpowered computers. So that's Fedora out of the
question.

It's really only the die-hard computer nuts who have the expensive
graphics cards, and those tend to the gamers hooked on Windows games
like World of Warcraft, or whatever the current fad is. So that's
virtually any type of Linux ignored.

If you do want to run flashy 3D environments on Fedora, are there any
other realistic choices than ATI or Nvidia, and the proprietary drivers,
to get it working? That, also, doesn't look good for Fedora.

The phrase, "shooting oneself in the foot," springs to mind.

--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.



--
users mailing list
users@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
 
Old 06-20-2011, 04:59 PM
Stephen Gallagher
 
Default Paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3

On Tue, 2011-06-21 at 02:23 +0930, Tim wrote:
> Is a corporation going to want to spend $100 per graphics card per PC,
> so that the default Gnome 3 actually works, or are they going to
> continue to only want to put in the $20 graphics card? (That just won't
> work with the new all-singing, all-dancing, Gnome 3.) So there's the
> next RHEL with Gnome shot down in flames.
>
> Likewise, the *average* home user faces the same quandary, and most
> people buy underpowered computers. So that's Fedora out of the
> question.

I have an "underpowered" computer running integrated Intel graphics
(read: the cheapest of the cheap). The open-source Intel drivers work
just fine with Gnome 3/Gnome Shell. (Actually, I have more trouble with
the NEWER Intel cards, like those on the Sandy Bridge architecture).

Despite how flashy things look, the Gnome folks did a really quite
impressive job of limiting the hardware requirements to a very
reasonable set of 3D functions that should be present on most machines
built in the last four years at least.
--
users mailing list
users@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
 
Old 06-20-2011, 05:18 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3

On 06/20/2011 09:53 AM, Tim wrote:
> Likewise, the*average* home user faces the same quandary, and most
> people buy underpowered computers.

Actually, the graphics on most computers are only underpowered if you're
into hardcore gaming or you're a graphics designer. For the rest of us,
the graphics are just fine for everything except Gnome 3.
--
users mailing list
users@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
 
Old 06-20-2011, 05:22 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3

On 06/20/2011 09:59 AM, Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> Despite how flashy things look, the Gnome folks did a really quite
> impressive job of limiting the hardware requirements to a very
> reasonable set of 3D functions that should be present on most machines
> built in the last four years at least.

And for those of us with older machines that we can't afford to upgrade?
--
users mailing list
users@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
 
Old 06-20-2011, 06:27 PM
Steven Stern
 
Default Paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3

On 06/20/2011 11:53 AM, Tim wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-06-20 at 10:44 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
>> There is a paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3 which I have not
>> seen discussed on this list.
>>
>> Gnome2 is totally mouse oriented. Everything you want to do you do by
>> moving the mouse and clicking. Obviously I am rerring to Gnome2 itself
>> not applications.
>>
>> However, in Gnome3 a large fraction of actions have been moved to the
>> keyboard.
>
> Found another can of worms to open? ;-)
>
> It just seems another oddity. Using the mouse, or other pointing
> device, was seen as making things easier for the non-computer literate,
> who distinctly hated typing for the command line interface. Yet, now,
> we're going to make them use the keyboard, albeit for a command line
> interface in a GUI...
>
> Linux has recently been pushed as "must get it onto ordinary desktops,"
> but who for? (With RHEL and its ilk for corporate, Fedora (and its ilk)
> for home.)
>
> Is a corporation going to want to spend $100 per graphics card per PC,
> so that the default Gnome 3 actually works, or are they going to
> continue to only want to put in the $20 graphics card? (That just won't
> work with the new all-singing, all-dancing, Gnome 3.) So there's the
> next RHEL with Gnome shot down in flames.
>
> Likewise, the *average* home user faces the same quandary, and most
> people buy underpowered computers. So that's Fedora out of the
> question.
>
> It's really only the die-hard computer nuts who have the expensive
> graphics cards, and those tend to the gamers hooked on Windows games
> like World of Warcraft, or whatever the current fad is. So that's
> virtually any type of Linux ignored.
>
> If you do want to run flashy 3D environments on Fedora, are there any
> other realistic choices than ATI or Nvidia, and the proprietary drivers,
> to get it working? That, also, doesn't look good for Fedora.
>
> The phrase, "shooting oneself in the foot," springs to mind.
>

I don't agree about the graphics. I'm using a 5 year old Radeon card
that came standard in this Dell. Every Enterprise-level Dell I've
bought (except those for some graphic designers) uses the basic graphics
card.

Gnome 3 works OK for me on this Radeon. I don't do any gaming, however.

--
-- Steve
--
users mailing list
users@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
 
Old 06-20-2011, 06:57 PM
Stuart McGraw
 
Default Paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3

On 06/20/2011 09:44 AM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> There is a paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3 which I have not
> seen discussed on this list.
>
> Gnome2 is totally mouse oriented. Everything you want to do you do by
> moving the mouse and clicking. Obviously I am rerring to Gnome2 itself
> not applications.
>
> However, in Gnome3 a large fraction of actions have been moved to the
> keyboard.
>
> This is the same difference as that of creating documents in Word and
> Latex. And this change in paradigm used to be a hot topic.
>
> Does anyone out there have an opinion pro or con about this shift that
> will no doubt be continued into the future with Gnome?

I too noted the mouse deprecation in Gnome 3. Besides
alienating a large group of users who simply prefer using
the mouse over the keyboard when there is a choice, there
is a second group also hurt by it -- people with an
impairment in one hand.

I find the mouse offers the most efficient use when doing
screen-wide activities -- I only switch to using the key-
board when entering large amounts of text. Because I
only use one hand, excessive switching between mouse and
keyboard activities is very ineffecient and aggravating.

The poor support for mouse operations in Gnome 3 has
probably reduced my efficiency in window management
activities by 80% or more.

The biggest problem ISTM, and an over-arching one, is
a design philosophy that seems to be, "we have no need
for user preferences because we are going to get the
interface right."

The problem is that no one size fits all. Trying to
come up with a single interface that is optimal on
everything from cell phones to high-def, multi-headed
workstations seems a fool's errand. One size that
is equally usable by mouse preferers's or keyboard
preferer's...one size that works for word-oriented
people and visually-oriented people... If possible
(and I doubt it), Gnome 3 is not it.

To cater to different uses and users requires different
way of accomplishing the same task, and different ways
of displaying results. That is, provide the user with
preferences and options.

Imposing the set of preferences that work for a relatively
small, interacting set of developers on the much wider
real world is bound to fail.

And, yes, I know there is customization via extensions.
The only reason I am still using Gnome 3 is the
wonderful extension at

http://intgat.tigress.co.uk/rmy/extensions/index.html

But extensions have problems. The author of the
above extension says that he expects it to break with
Gnome3 updates. Extensions are a separate piece of
software that has to tracked, updated, re-installed.
Extensions don't come with the same quality expectations
that the base software has. Extension writers get
new interests. Extensions often don't have the same
access to the base software as the base software it
self and can be limited in functionality because of
it.

So would be far better if functionality like this were
integrated into Gnome 3, to be optionally activated
by user preferences.






--
users mailing list
users@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
 
Old 06-20-2011, 09:00 PM
Alexander Volovics
 
Default Paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:57:24PM -0600, Stuart McGraw wrote:

> On 06/20/2011 09:44 AM, Aaron Konstam wrote:

> > There is a paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3 which I have not
> > seen discussed on this list.

> I too noted the mouse deprecation in Gnome 3. Besides
> alienating a large group of users who simply prefer using
> the mouse over the keyboard when there is a choice, ....

Do you people actually work with Gnome 3.

If you are a versatile mouse user I suspect that you can
actually work just as fast with the mouse as with the keyboard.
Jab the pointer in the upper left corner, click on an app in the
dash or swerve to the right and click on 'applications', click on the
app you need if you see it immediately in this monstrous platoon
of icons, or go even further to the right and select a category
(Acessories, Games, etc) and click on an icon there to open an
app. When the app is open you jab the mouse pointer in the upper
left corner again, select the app with the mouse pointer and drag
it to a workspace, etc. You have everything you ever had, point
and click, drag and drop, just in a slightly different desktop
arragement. And of course the apps themselves are just as completely
mouse oriented as they ever were.

Gnome 3 is only keyboard oriented in that it lets you type (or start
typing) the name of an app in the search bar (and that you can
access the overview by pressing the windows key or Alt-F1).

The Gnome developers missed a great opportunity to make keyboard
work easier by not implementing the use of the 'arrow keys' to navigate
the icons in the Dash and the icons in the applications overview for
example (like Ubuntu did with Unity which actually offers keyboard
users more versatility).

Things like the use of 'Alt-F2' and other keyboard shortcuts were
available a long time already.

So on the whole there is no paradigm of keyboard use and Gnome 3 is
certainly not advertised as such. Read the 'Desktop Help' under the
ring buoy icon and pay no attention to 'misunderstood marketing jargon
and hype' and 'biased reporting of opinioted users'.
Experience it honestly for yourself.

Alexander


--
users mailing list
users@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
 
Old 06-21-2011, 12:38 AM
Stuart McGraw
 
Default Paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3

On 06/20/2011 03:00 PM, Alexander Volovics wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:57:24PM -0600, Stuart McGraw wrote:
>
>> On 06/20/2011 09:44 AM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
>
>> > There is a paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3 which I have not
>> > seen discussed on this list.
>
>> I too noted the mouse deprecation in Gnome 3. Besides
>> alienating a large group of users who simply prefer using
>> the mouse over the keyboard when there is a choice, ....
>
> Do you people actually work with Gnome 3.

Yes. Been using it every day for almost two weeks now.

> If you are a versatile mouse user I suspect that you can
> actually work just as fast with the mouse as with the keyboard.
> Jab the pointer in the upper left corner, click on an app in the
> dash or swerve to the right and click on 'applications', click on the
> app you need if you see it immediately in this monstrous platoon
> of icons, or go even further to the right and select a category
> (Acessories, Games, etc) and click on an icon there to open an
> app.

Exactly my complaint. Up to the top right corner to
get the overview, click the Applications button. Then,
from the left side of the screen, a wild, nearly full
width traverse over to the right side to select a
category, then back again to the left side of the
screen to select the icon if it happens to be on the
left.

Compare that to Gnome 2 where I go to the left side
of the screen and click Applications, move the mouse
an inch or two to select a category in the menu, move
another inch or two to select the app.

Why at least couldn't the Categories list (and scroll
bar) in Gnome 3 be to the left of the icons so that
one encounters it "on the way"?

Same with workspaces -- up to the extreme left corner,
then all the way to the extreme right side of the
screen to show the WS summary. Now I'm presented
with a bunch of mini-images of workspaces.
Which has the window I want? Can't tell because
all the windows are overlapping. Take best guess
an select one. Now I can see which windows are
in the WS. But damn, they are all white Terminal
windows or similar that look the same. Squint and
see if I can identify some familiar text.

Eventually, possibly after a couple wrong guesses
I find the window I wanted.

I am not anti-Gnome 3 -- I am really making an effort
to work with it. But most everything I've read here
recommends avoiding the crazy back and forth mouse
movements by using keyboard shortcuts and as I said
that is not a preferable option for many people.
And even ignoring that there are issues like finding
windows in WS as described. (There are also some real
WTF things like why is the "not found" message presented
on the left side of the screen far from the text search
box on the right side?)

> When the app is open you jab the mouse pointer in the upper
> left corner again, select the app with the mouse pointer and drag
> it to a workspace, etc. You have everything you ever had, point
> and click, drag and drop, just in a slightly different desktop
> arragement.

But one that requires far more mouse motion and clicks
than Gnome 2 to do the same operation.

>From poking around in the Gnome 3 design docs it is
becoming clear to me that no one has actually done
any real usability testing on Gnome 3 or quantitative
comparisons to Gnome 2.

>[...]
> So on the whole there is no paradigm of keyboard use and Gnome 3 is
> certainly not advertised as such. Read the 'Desktop Help' under the
> ring buoy icon and pay no attention to 'misunderstood marketing jargon
> and hype' and 'biased reporting of opinioted users'.
> Experience it honestly for yourself.

I have. And that's why I responded in this thread.
--
users mailing list
users@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
 
Old 06-21-2011, 12:46 AM
Ed Greshko
 
Default Paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3

On 06/21/2011 08:38 AM, Stuart McGraw wrote:
> But one that requires far more mouse motion and clicks
> than Gnome 2 to do the same operation.
>
> >From poking around in the Gnome 3 design docs it is
> becoming clear to me that no one has actually done
> any real usability testing on Gnome 3 or quantitative
> comparisons to Gnome 2.

I don't normally use GNOME 3. But in trying it out I could not help but
to think the interface is designed for Smart Phones or Tablet users. I
could see how it would give my thumbs an equal workout.
--
users mailing list
users@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
 
Old 06-21-2011, 01:02 AM
Tom Horsley
 
Default Paradigm shift going from Gnome2 to Gnome3

You mean you don't all have a frequent mousing miles
reward program?
--
users mailing list
users@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 04:51 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org