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Old 06-15-2011, 07:39 PM
JB
 
Default systemd discussion

Hi,

there is a very interesting discussion on Fedora devel list:

systemd: please stop trying to take over the world Denys Vlasenko
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-June/152323.html

The poster, Denys Vlasenko, showed an inquiring mind and justified it by asking
very relevant UNIX fundamental and technical questions, thus showing he is
a very knowledgeable person.

I share his concerns about systemd:
- going beyond system init replacement
- not adhering to UNIX principles (modularity, etc)
- interference with sysadmin duties/decisions to set up the system (e.g.
loading modules on its own and e.g. enabling sys capabilities and protocols)

To Denys:
Drill, baby, drill :-)

There are people on test and user lists who are afraid to even touch F15 ...
and the reasons are systemd, GNOME 3, etc. Things called "progress" ...

I follow the discussion with great interest and so should you all.

JB


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Old 06-15-2011, 09:09 PM
"Clyde E. Kunkel"
 
Default systemd discussion

On 06/15/2011 03:39 PM, JB wrote:
> Hi,
>
> there is a very interesting discussion on Fedora devel list:
>
> systemd: please stop trying to take over the world Denys Vlasenko
> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-June/152323.html
>
> The poster, Denys Vlasenko, showed an inquiring mind and justified it by asking
> very relevant UNIX fundamental and technical questions, thus showing he is
> a very knowledgeable person.
>
> I share his concerns about systemd:
> - going beyond system init replacement
> - not adhering to UNIX principles (modularity, etc)
> - interference with sysadmin duties/decisions to set up the system (e.g.
> loading modules on its own and e.g. enabling sys capabilities and protocols)
>
> To Denys:
> Drill, baby, drill :-)
>
> There are people on test and user lists who are afraid to even touch F15 ...
> and the reasons are systemd, GNOME 3, etc. Things called "progress" ...
>
> I follow the discussion with great interest and so should you all.
>
> JB
>
>

Both systemd and gnome 3 have caused me no end of trouble that I have
had a lot of fun in managing to overcome (just like dracut did back
when). In doing so, I have learned a lot more about the kernel, boot
processes, various startup processes, gnome and workflow.

Reminds of my card walloping days and the transition to computers. Some
made the transition to computer programming easily, some tried to wallop
cards on computers and became frustrated and quit and some just quit
without trying.

All this said, I am beginning to believe Fedora is more and more an
experiment in social engineering.

I am having a lot of fun.

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OldFart

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Old 06-15-2011, 10:06 PM
JB
 
Default systemd discussion

Clyde E. Kunkel <clydekunkel7734 <at> cox.net> writes:

> ...
> All this said, I am beginning to believe Fedora is more and more an
> experiment in social engineering.
> ...

That's a well-chosen remark :-)
"Social engineering is the art of manipulating people into performing
actions...".

I think it also applies to open source domain activities.
I have had an impression over the years that users, but also ad hoc developers,
are used very instrumentally ("guinea pigs" ?) as users, testers, and devs, in
the process of furthering goals of open source projects or companies.

I see a dichotomy between e.g. open source companies' interests and those of
larger community, be it other open source organizations or even a mass of
individuals.

I am also surprised (have been for long time) by seeing Linux projects violating
UNIX principles of software development.
In this particular context, I am disappointed that they, apparently, lack
oversight by management, starting with the design phase.

Thanks god there are still those old timers all over the places, who are vigilant
and capable of spotting brewing trouble, unfortunately almost after the fact.

JB


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Old 06-15-2011, 10:13 PM
Tom Horsley
 
Default systemd discussion

On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:39:38 +0000 (UTC)
JB wrote:

> There are people on test and user lists who are afraid to even touch F15 ...
> and the reasons are systemd, GNOME 3, etc. Things called "progress" ...

I rather like systemd, not because I feel like I'll ever be able to
understand it ("mind numbing complexity" is a phrase that comes to
mind :-), but because it really and truly does indeed boot the system
much much faster. Not small percentage benchmark faster, but big
human perceptible speed increases.

Of course, at the moment, some of that speed may be because it
isn't actually doing everything (like getting NFS filesystems mounted).
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:38 PM
JB
 
Default systemd discussion

Tom Horsley <horsley1953 <at> gmail.com> writes:

> ...

I am going easy about systemd.
I am not sure it is going to survive as is ...

Just a small example.
# yum info avahi
...
Description : Avahi is a system which facilitates service discovery on
: a local network -- this means that you can plug your laptop or
: computer into a network and instantly be able to view other
: people who you can chat with, find printers to print to or find
: files being shared. This kind of technology is already found in
: MacOS X (branded 'Rendezvous', 'Bonjour' and sometimes
: 'ZeroConf') and is very convenient.
...

I used to remove avahi package from my systems prior to F15 - no need for
"zeroconf" here. And I could do it, if I remember it.

With F15, try it:
# yum remove avahi
...
================================================== =============================
Package Arch Version Repository Size
================================================== =============================
Removing:
avahi i686 0.6.30-3.fc15 @koji-override-1/$releasever 997 k
Removing for dependencies:
avahi-compat-libdns_sd
i686 0.6.30-3.fc15 @koji-override-1/$releasever 30 k
avahi-glib i686 0.6.30-3.fc15 @koji-override-1/$releasever 10 k
gigolo i686 0.4.1-2.fc15 @koji-override-0/$releasever 546 k
gnome-vfs2 i686 2.24.4-5.fc15 @koji-override-0/$releasever 3.3 M
gnomebaker i686 0.6.4-10.fc15 @koji-override-0/$releasever 2.0 M
gvfs i686 1.8.2-1.fc15 @updates 5.1 M
libbonoboui i686 2.24.5-1.fc15 @koji-override-0/$releasever 1.2 M
libfm-gtk i686 0.1.15-5.D20110427gita1f63c3114.fc15
@koji-override-0/$releasever 331 k
libgnome i686 2.32.1-2.fc15 @koji-override-0/$releasever 2.9 M
libgnomeui i686 2.24.5-2.fc15 @koji-override-0/$releasever 3.5 M
libpurple i686 2.7.11-2.fc15 @koji-override-0/$releasever 27 M
lxde-common noarch 0.5.5-0.2.20110328git87c368d7.fc15
@koji-override-0/$releasever 919 k
lxmusic i686 0.4.4-4.fc15 @koji-override-0/$releasever 384 k
pcmanfm i686 0.9.9-5.D20110422git3f899d14eb.fc15
@koji-override-0/$releasever 665 k
pidgin i686 2.7.11-2.fc15 @koji-override-0/$releasever 2.9 M
xmms2 i686 0.7-8.fc15 @koji-override-0/$releasever 2.5 M

Transaction Summary
================================================== =============================
Remove 17 Package(s)

Installed size: 54 M
Is this ok [y/N]: n

Why ?
May I add that avahi is a brain child of the same dev Lennart Poettering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avahi_(software)

JB


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Old 06-15-2011, 10:56 PM
Petrus de Calguarium
 
Default systemd discussion

JB wrote:

> - going beyond system init replacement
> - not adhering to UNIX principles (modularity, etc)
> - interference with sysadmin duties/decisions to set up the system (e.g.
> loading modules on its own and e.g. enabling sys capabilities and
> protocols)

It would be nice if there were more integration with system-config-services
or a better, more modern replacement.

I never needed all of those run levels, It was just confusing and useless
complexity. And 2-3 of them were always unused anyway, so getting rid of them
was sensible.

Why shouldn't it load modules on its own? If the system can take care of
running itself, then all the less for me to worry about. I don't want to have
to configure every little thing; I want the system to run itself. But, I do
like to be able to configure those things that interest me. I think that
Fedora 15, as it is now, allows me this.

> There are people on test and user lists who are afraid to even touch F15
> ... and the reasons are systemd, GNOME 3, etc. Things called "progress"

That's their problem. My computers are running as I want them to and I have
no complaints. Love progress, even when it means I have to unlearn some old
stuff and adapt to improvements.

If you don't like gnome 3 or kde 4, then there are lots of other window
managers in the fedora repos, or you can go all cli by logging in to vt-2 to
vt6.


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Old 06-15-2011, 11:00 PM
Ralf Corsepius
 
Default systemd discussion

On 06/16/2011 12:13 AM, Tom Horsley wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:39:38 +0000 (UTC)
> JB wrote:
>
>> There are people on test and user lists who are afraid to even touch F15 ...
>> and the reasons are systemd, GNOME 3, etc. Things called "progress" ...

Well, I am "sufficiently impressed" by F15 for not using it

> I rather like systemd, not because I feel like I'll ever be able to
> understand it ("mind numbing complexity" is a phrase that comes to
> mind :-),
So far, I am having problems to find reasons to like it :=)

It certainly solves a couple of problems sysvinit/upstart had, but is
introducing new ones and without any doubt has integration issues.

> but because it really and truly does indeed boot the system
> much much faster. Not small percentage benchmark faster, but big
> human perceptible speed increases.
Really? I measure almost identical times for cold-booting F14 rsp. F15.

From grub-prompt into gdm: both ca. 60s (wrist watch measured;
Identical machine, similar configurations, parallel installation into
different partitions of the same disk).

Ralf


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Old 06-15-2011, 11:23 PM
JB
 
Default systemd discussion

Petrus de Calguarium <pgueckel@...> writes:

> ...
> Why shouldn't it load modules on its own? If the system can take care of
> running itself, then all the less for me to worry about. I don't want to have
> to configure every little thing; I want the system to run itself. But, I do
> like to be able to configure those things that interest me. I think that
> Fedora 15, as it is now, allows me this.
>

Here is the answer - you should be more sceptical about systemd's "helpfulness":

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-June/152596.html

> ...
> If you don't like gnome 3 or kde 4, then there are lots of other window
> managers in the fedora repos, or you can go all cli by logging in to vt-2 to
> vt6.
>

Yes, indeed - LXDE is my new desktop. I love classics :-)

JB


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Old 06-16-2011, 12:06 AM
Mike Wright
 
Default systemd discussion

On 06/15/2011 04:19 PM, 夜神 岩男 wrote:
> Sorry, JB, I usually avoid posting (hence the trash email address), but
> not today because this hit home.
>
> On Wed, 2011-06-15 at 22:06 +0000, JB wrote:
>> Clyde E. Kunkel<clydekunkel7734<at> cox.net> writes:
>>
>>> ...
>>> All this said, I am beginning to believe Fedora is more and more an
>>> experiment in social engineering.
>>> ...
>>
>> That's a well-chosen remark :-)
>> "Social engineering is the art of manipulating people into performing
>> actions...".
>
> Sometimes this does seem the case, but on the other hand considering the
> size of the open source community these days (as opposed to say, 1994,
> before there was a real label for it) there is no way to make a decision
> that everyone will agree with. There are too many people to please and
> no possible way everyone can communicate everything to each other and
> discuss prior to making a decision on something. Of course, these days
> blogging has trained people to be more self-important *and* noisier than
> ever. Another way of saying this is perhaps that the self-important used
> to do more and say less, and by simply doing they were de facto in
> charge. Argument from irrelevant people clogs lists more than it used to
> -- or perhaps I am getting old and nostalgic.
>
> Of course the "quietly doing" part above is, and forever will be, the
> secret to having things your way in open source -- or actually in any
> tech. Working implementations of ideas carry far more weight than any
> argument in a mailing list.
>
>> I am also surprised (have been for long time) by seeing Linux projects violating
>> UNIX principles of software development.
>> In this particular context, I am disappointed that they, apparently, lack
>> oversight by management, starting with the design phase.
>
> This does not surprise me in the least. As open source has become more
> high profile it has attracted the attention of and absorbed the vanity
> developers who used to write their pet apps in Pascal, QBASIC or Java on
> Windows (or OS/2 if they were l33+), and now play with whatever vanity
> language is popular this week from within the confines of whatever open
> source project they think will make them famous(ish). This sort of
> developer often can't tell you who Fred Brooks, Eric Raymond, Donald
> Knuth, Ken Thompson, or anyone similar are and haven't read anything
> they've written for our benefit about design or the Unixy way to solve
> problems.
>
> Chicken lipstick is in high demand, automated text processing through
> intelligent use of shell scripts is down, overly complex solutions are
> up, overweight software is up, the number of people who have ever
> learned to configure their system starting with a minimal install (not
> even touching the number of users who can't build their own system from
> source) is way down, etc.
>
> These are simply signs that the community has changed because the people
> who remember what the Unixy way of doing things was has become a much
> smaller percentage of the population as we've absorbed a million haX0r
> d00dz from the Windows world. That expansion is not bad and the new guys
> certainly mean well, but we've definitely not done enough to familiarize
> newcomers with the history of Unix, who the original old guys were, what
> they were thinking, and the depth of thought that went into a project
> before the first line of code was written back in the day.
>
> It doesn't help that C and Lisp are considered "too hard" to teach in
> allegedly credible CS undergrad courses these days. Specific discussion
> in class about what happens within a compiler and how processors
> actually process things has been replaced with rather vague generalities
> (those are "deep subjects that you don't need to worry about") and freed
> the instructors to focus on teaching elementary problem solving in Java
> and Python as if it is deep CS skill. In other words, elementary problem
> solving logic and problem deconstruction theory is now masquerading as
> deep computer science -- the technicals are scary so they are to be
> avoided (what if my students aren't smart enough to pass?!? I might look
> like a bad instructor -- best avoid pointer math and recursion this
> go-around...).
>
> Without achieving that critical mass of fundamental knowledge it is very
> difficult for newcomers to the community to identify exactly why the
> Unix way is better than the Windows way. Their choice to join the open
> source community is therefore based largely on emotional and social
> factors -- this is counter-cultural, it's against The Man/M$/Whoever, "I
> think I have better security (but I don't know what that means on a deep
> level)", its cheaper, etc. -- not on technical grounds. Any reason is
> adequate in my view, but without a firmly set social more that guides
> newcomers to familiarize themselves with the roots of Unix and do their
> basic homework we cannot realistically expect Linux to remain Unixy
> forever.
>
> Just my $2.00.
>
> -Iwao

+1
Very elegantly written. I could not with you more.

If anybody would like an authoritative treatise I recommend the Unix
"Blue Book" from Bell Labs (my memory fails me but I think it was also
Ritchie).

>
>
>

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Old 06-16-2011, 01:00 AM
JB
 
Default systemd discussion

夜神 岩男 <supergiantpotato <at> yahoo.co.jp> writes:

>
> Sorry, JB, I usually avoid posting (hence the trash email address), but
> not today because this hit home.
>

Well, we are happy we woke you up :-)

> ...
> There are too many people to please and
> no possible way everyone can communicate everything to each other and
> discuss prior to making a decision on something.

I think many users/testers on this list are experienced and have a good sense
of what is important. If they are not sure about it, the exchange of opinions
here clears up their mind.

Fedora is, according to :
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=fedora

"The Fedora Project is an openly-developed project designed by Red Hat, open for
general participation, led by a meritocracy, following a set of project
objectives. The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community
to build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from open
source software. Development will be done in a public forum."

Now, I think that Fedora (thru its Red Hat sponsorship) is acting "by ambush" -
that is, there is very little consideration for opinion expressed by users
*prior* to schedule of new major features (projects) to be implemented in next
release.
It is assumed that what Red Hat thinks is good for them, Fedora, and by
simple extrapolation it must be for everybody associated with Fedora (formally
or not).
That's why I said the users and testers are treated instrumentally.

The systemd is an example of a hard push and twisting of facts about others'
participation in adopting it that backfired.
The warnings were coming in advance from users community here. They were
ignored as noice.
Now they are coming even from within Red Hat itself, heavy guns judging by
quality of arguments presented (fundamental and technical).
Clearly, there is something wrong about the process of Fedora development.

Also, Red Hat and Fedora thru their systemd developer Lennart Poettering, and
GNOME 3 devs, together tried to ambush Linux community at large, when they
"proposed" a mutual dependency plan, exclusive to Linux and "screw other UNIX
and Linux distros", in which the role of systemd went far beyond its original
purpose to be a replacement of system init.
That alienated many people from different corners of Linux *and* UNIX domains,
as could be seen in tech magazines and various discussion forums.

I think all these mishaps and encountered resistance are examples of bad PR
for Red Hat and Fedora.

I think there is a need to think about it.
Please take the users and your own people more seriously if you want a viable
community, Fedora distro, and later collect fruits of your past actions.

JB


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