A clarification of Fedora philosophy.
 

On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 19:07 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 06/14/2011 06:53 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > Ok , I accept your point. Then why is gnome-tweak-tool not included by
> > default? One needs this program too configure Gnome 3
>
> It is not part of default GNOME. It is a extra (essentially, third
> party) utility for tweaking things which are not regular preferences via
> the control panel. It is merely a more accessible frontend to gsettings
> than dconf-editor is. This tool and extensions won't be installed by
> default.
>
> Rahul
>

I need a Fedora philosophy clarification of the above statements.

But first don't you mean gconf-editor rather than dconf-editor? The
latter when installed does not show up in the menus of Gnome3 and seems
to me rather obscure to use. At least I can't figure out how to use it.

Now to philosophy. I assume Fedora is the first party, Gnome is the
second party and whoever did gnome-tweak-tool is the third.

I would assume that Fedora would want the best interactive experience
for the user. gnome-tweak-tool makes it easy for the user to configure
the gnome3 experience for the user. The other interfaces do not. For
example the focus window on mouse configuration which is not addressed
by gnome-tweak-tool is hard to figure out, and the CLI configuration
commands recently posted on this list would be almost impossible to come
up with for the average user.

So if gnome-tweak-tool is useful (I first heard of it from your post)
why not include it in the distribution to make configuration of Gnome3
easier for the user?
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A clarification of Fedora philosophy.
 

On 06/15/2011 05:14 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> But first don't you mean gconf-editor rather than dconf-editor? The
> latter when installed does not show up in the menus of Gnome3 and seems
> to me rather obscure to use. At least I can't figure out how to use it.

dconf / gsettings is the replacement for gconf in GNOME 3. So I do mean
dconf-editor

> So if gnome-tweak-tool is useful (I first heard of it from your post)
> why not include it in the distribution to make configuration of Gnome3
> easier for the user?

Many useful tools are not installed by default for various reason.
Essentially what is in the default installation in the desktop, is the
decision of the desktop team members. If you want to ask them, post to
the desktop mailing list in Fedora

Rahul

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A clarification of Fedora philosophy.
 

On Wed, 2011-06-15 at 20:03 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 06/15/2011 05:14 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > But first don't you mean gconf-editor rather than dconf-editor? The
> > latter when installed does not show up in the menus of Gnome3 and seems
> > to me rather obscure to use. At least I can't figure out how to use it.
>
> dconf / gsettings is the replacement for gconf in GNOME 3. So I do mean
> dconf-editor
>
Now I am really confused. Both gconf-editor and dconf-editor come up
with the alias Configuration Editor, so I assume only one of them can
show up in the menu of applications. dconf-editor does not show up even
if gconf is not installed.. gsettings wants schema to be named.
gconf-editor has schema displayed . dconf-editor does not.

In gconf-editor Under desktop->gnome there are 13 items for
configuration. In dconf-editor in the same place there are only two
which are limited in the parameters one can set.

Only a very minimal set of keys can be displayed to be manipulated in
dconf-editor. The ones that gconf-editor shows that actually control
things like mice and windows focus I can not find in dconf-editor.

What am I missing?
> > So if gnome-tweak-tool is useful (I first heard of it from your post)
> > why not include it in the distribution to make configuration of Gnome3
> > easier for the user?
>
> Many useful tools are not installed by default for various reason.
> Essentially what is in the default installation in the desktop, is the
> decision of the desktop team members. If you want to ask them, post to
> the desktop mailing list in Fedora
>
> Rahul
>
I understand that the desktop team controls what is installed with the
desktop. I was hoping you had some clue you would share with me what is
the overall philosophy that decides inclusion. But I guess I will have
to ask them.

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A clarification of Fedora philosophy.
 

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 04:37:24PM -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:

> Now I am really confused. Both gconf-editor and dconf-editor come up
> with the alias Configuration Editor, so I assume only one of them can
> show up in the menu of applications. dconf-editor does not show up even
> if gconf is not installed.. gsettings wants schema to be named.
> gconf-editor has schema displayed . dconf-editor does not.

> In gconf-editor Under desktop->gnome there are 13 items for
> configuration. In dconf-editor in the same place there are only two
> which are limited in the parameters one can set.

> Only a very minimal set of keys can be displayed to be manipulated in
> dconf-editor. The ones that gconf-editor shows that actually control
> things like mice and windows focus I can not find in dconf-editor.

> What am I missing?

You are not missing anything, gnome 3 is missing a lot of things!
Certainly proper configuration tools. And proper documentation to
explain the 'inner workings'.

Have a look at:
http://blog.fpmurphy.com/2011/03/customizing-the-gnome-3-shell.html

It contains some information on using gsettings to change settings.
Maybe it will be of use to you.

Alexander




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A clarification of Fedora philosophy.
 

On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 16:37:24 -0500
Aaron Konstam wrote:

> Only a very minimal set of keys can be displayed to be manipulated in
> dconf-editor. The ones that gconf-editor shows that actually control
> things like mice and windows focus I can not find in dconf-editor.

Yea, things definitely appear to be in a very mixed state at the
moment. Some settings seem to come from dconf and some from
gconf, and what comes from where is anyone's guess.

Also dconf-editor seems really braindead compared to gconf-editor.
For one thing, at least gconf-editor has a search function. You
have to manually grep the schema files to find settings for
dconf that are buried in strange places.
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A clarification of Fedora philosophy.
 

On 06/15/2011 03:02 PM, Alexander Volovics wrote:
> You are not missing anything, gnome 3 is missing a lot of things!
> Certainly proper configuration tools. And proper documentation to
> explain the 'inner workings'.

I don't want to start Yet Another Flame War, but does anybody know how
or why such seemingly-obvious tools were left out? Was it just a case
of "so many programs, so little time?"
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A clarification of Fedora philosophy.
 

On Wed, 2011-06-15 at 15:18 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
> I don't want to start Yet Another Flame War,

Yet, he asks the question that's gonna do it... ;-)

> but does anybody know how or why such seemingly-obvious tools were
> left out? Was it just a case of "so many programs, so little time?"

Hasn't this already been discussed on this list, several times, even
recently?

There's:




Not everything will fit on the DVD, so you install extras, afterwards.

Gnome reckons you don't need to configure it to death, so many things
are preset, and customisation requires fiddling under the hood.

Only die-hard fiddlers need that, so they can do it the hard way.

Someone else can make a gadget that makes configuration easier.

It's automated, so you don't need to know how to make it work.

How we do things changes so often that it's too much of a chore to keep
documentation up to date, or even write the initial documentation.
We'll let someone else do it.

A hundred different people produced this, and none of us can explain it
all, so none of us are going to try.




I think I've summarised most of it. ;-

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A clarification of Fedora philosophy.
 

On 06/15/2011 08:23 PM, Tim wrote:
> Not everything will fit on the DVD, so you install extras, afterwards.
>
> Gnome reckons you don't need to configure it to death, so many things
> are preset, and customisation requires fiddling under the hood.
>

I suspect that these two are the main reasons. Thank you.
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