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Old 05-28-2011, 05:57 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Why no icons? Was, How to switch back to metacity

On 05/28/2011 05:31 AM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
>
> My biggest culture shock is losing all of my desktop icons.

Now this is something I just can't understand. I don't want to start an
argument, but does anybody know why this decision was made?
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:08 PM
Steven Stern
 
Default Why no icons? Was, How to switch back to metacity

On 05/28/2011 12:57 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 05/28/2011 05:31 AM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
>>
>> My biggest culture shock is losing all of my desktop icons.
>
> Now this is something I just can't understand. I don't want to start an
> argument, but does anybody know why this decision was made?

Install gnome-tweak-tool and select "Have the File Manager handle the
desktop".

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Old 05-28-2011, 08:25 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Why no icons? Was, How to switch back to metacity

On 05/28/2011 11:08 AM, Steven Stern wrote:
> Install gnome-tweak-tool and select "Have the File Manager handle the
> desktop".

Thank you, but that doesn't answer my question. And, as I now use XFCE
not Gnome, I have no need of gnome-tweak-tool. Still, it may help those
of you using Gnome 3.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:27 PM
Bill Davidsen
 
Default Why no icons? Was, How to switch back to metacity

Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 05/28/2011 05:31 AM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
>>
>> My biggest culture shock is losing all of my desktop icons.
>
> Now this is something I just can't understand. I don't want to start an
> argument, but does anybody know why this decision was made?

Hubris? Developers infected with a "Windows Mentality" virus which causes them
to feel that providing a consistent user interface the user can't change is
morally superior to the "Have it your way" approach.

I am not too surprised about GNOME3, but I thought the Fedora decision making
group were better people than that and would offer GNOME2 for some length of
time rather than offer no option at all but retrain. That might make sense for
developers who learn new stuff all the time,and hobby users who are just playing
or learning, but for people using Fedora to do things important to them, there
is a huge time cost and no gain.

Retraining users to use GNOME3 and finding new tools to do old tasks is as
productive as a decision to change from left hand to right hand drive cars while
learning a from an instruction manual written in a language they have to learn
first. Learning new things is good, having to learn a new way to do the old
things, not so much.

--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:39 PM
Joe Zeff
 
Default Why no icons? Was, How to switch back to metacity

On 05/28/2011 02:27 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> Hubris? Developers infected with a "Windows Mentality" virus which causes them
> to feel that providing a consistent user interface the user can't change is
> morally superior to the "Have it your way" approach.

You may be right in general. I don't know, and I'd rather stay away
from that aspect of the issue, TYVM, because that way leads to
flame-wars. And, in any case it doesn't explain their decision to do
away with desktop icons, and that's all I'm interested in.
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Old 05-29-2011, 09:17 AM
Peter Boy
 
Default Why no icons? Was, How to switch back to metacity

Am Samstag, den 28.05.2011, 17:27 -0400 schrieb Bill Davidsen:
> Learning new things is good, having to learn a new way to do the old
> things, not so much.

That is exactly my problem as well. Unfortunately I couldn't spent the
time over the last months to make my own experiences using the betas but
just followed closely the discussion here and was concerned. Yesterday I
downloaded the live image and made my experiences. Now I'm simply
horrified. I use Fedora for my daily work and just can't spend the time
to reorganize all my working habits and routines.

So my question, perhaps slightly OT for this thread: Did you find a way
to handle the situation?

Is there some kind of "Fedora survival guide for unteachable Gnome2
users" around?


Thanks in advance
Peter

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Old 05-29-2011, 01:05 PM
Kevin Fenzi
 
Default Why no icons? Was, How to switch back to metacity

On Sat, 28 May 2011 17:27:36 -0400
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote:

...snip...

> I am not too surprised about GNOME3, but I thought the Fedora
> decision making group were better people than that and would offer
> GNOME2 for some length of time rather than offer no option at all but
> retrain. That might make sense for developers who learn new stuff all
> the time,and hobby users who are just playing or learning, but for
> people using Fedora to do things important to them, there is a huge
> time cost and no gain.

There are two issues with such a option:

1) It would be a great deal of work to get gnome2 and gnome3 to
co-exist side by side, as they share a lot of things that would need to
be made to work for both.

2) There are no people (or very few) willing to maintain it. Upstream
is working on gnome3, all the fedora gnome maintainers are working on
gnome3. If a group of interested and qualified folks wanted to work on
providing gnome2 I would think it would be possible, but I know of no
such group.

The "Fedora decision making group" has no power to hire a team to work
on gnome2.

kevin
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Old 05-29-2011, 02:34 PM
Bill Davidsen
 
Default Why no icons? Was, How to switch back to metacity

Peter Boy wrote:
> Am Samstag, den 28.05.2011, 17:27 -0400 schrieb Bill Davidsen:
>> Learning new things is good, having to learn a new way to do the old
>> things, not so much.
>
> That is exactly my problem as well. Unfortunately I couldn't spent the
> time over the last months to make my own experiences using the betas but
> just followed closely the discussion here and was concerned. Yesterday I
> downloaded the live image and made my experiences. Now I'm simply
> horrified. I use Fedora for my daily work and just can't spend the time
> to reorganize all my working habits and routines.
>
> So my question, perhaps slightly OT for this thread: Did you find a way
> to handle the situation?
>
> Is there some kind of "Fedora survival guide for unteachable Gnome2
> users" around?
>
http://scientificlinux.org - grab their 6.0 release and live with it for a
decade or so. Note that CentOS hasn't gotten to 6.0 yet, SL has a similar
approach but (a) makes it easy to have site customization, and (b) may get
things out sooner, due to using paid staff rather than volunteers.

--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
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Old 05-29-2011, 02:55 PM
Bill Davidsen
 
Default Why no icons? Was, How to switch back to metacity

Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Sat, 28 May 2011 17:27:36 -0400
> Bill Davidsen<davidsen@tmr.com> wrote:
>
> ...snip...
>
>> I am not too surprised about GNOME3, but I thought the Fedora
>> decision making group were better people than that and would offer
>> GNOME2 for some length of time rather than offer no option at all but
>> retrain. That might make sense for developers who learn new stuff all
>> the time,and hobby users who are just playing or learning, but for
>> people using Fedora to do things important to them, there is a huge
>> time cost and no gain.
>
> There are two issues with such a option:
>
> 1) It would be a great deal of work to get gnome2 and gnome3 to
> co-exist side by side, as they share a lot of things that would need to
> be made to work for both.
>
> 2) There are no people (or very few) willing to maintain it. Upstream
> is working on gnome3, all the fedora gnome maintainers are working on
> gnome3. If a group of interested and qualified folks wanted to work on
> providing gnome2 I would think it would be possible, but I know of no
> such group.
>
> The "Fedora decision making group" has no power to hire a team to work
> on gnome2.
>
They have the power to say "not ready" though. And the alpha of fc15 shipped
with a GNOME3 which runs in a VM and doesn't require a magic video card. Was
that capability deliberately removed from the final fc15, or was it part of the
official GNOME3 release and absolutely unfixable? Because running a GNOME3
desktop in a VM would be a low impact teaching tool, users could get their feet
wet without a full install on bare iron.

--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
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Old 05-29-2011, 03:04 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Why no icons? Was, How to switch back to metacity

On 05/29/2011 08:25 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> They have the power to say "not ready" though. And the alpha of fc15
> shipped
> with a GNOME3 which runs in a VM and doesn't require a magic video card. Was
> that capability deliberately removed from the final fc15, or was it part of the
> official GNOME3 release and absolutely unfixable? Because running a GNOME3
> desktop in a VM would be a low impact teaching tool, users could get their feet
> wet without a full install on bare iron.

GNOME 3 runs fine on a VM including the fallback mode. GNOME Shell also
runs on a VM if you look at the latest version of VirtualBox. Work is
being done by Adam Jackson from Red Hat to include support for software
rendering of GNOME Shell or more accurately, Clutter, the toolkit used
by GNOME Shell. This is not done yet and it is not clear how efficient
it would be

Rahul
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