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Old 03-21-2011, 03:33 PM
Unknown
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On 03/22/2011 06:36:32 AM, stan wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 11:19:33 -0700
> Joe Zeff <joe@zeff.us> wrote:
>
> > On 03/21/2011 10:16 AM, stan wrote:
> > > And it
> > > begs the question of*why* people might be deserting Fedora.
> >
> > No it doesn't; it *ASKS* the question.
>
> It doesn't ask the question. Asking 'Why might people be deserting
> Fedora?' asks the question. I presume you meant, leads to the
> question, or reveals the question, or forces the question, or inspires
> the question, or opens the question, or begs the question. ;-)
>

I havent deserted Fedora
Roger
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Old 03-21-2011, 07:44 PM
Aaron Konstam
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On Mon, 2011-03-21 at 10:16 -0700, stan wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Just thought I would make an observation about the direction of Fedora
> after reading some of the comments in the OT morons thread, that has
> morphed into grumbling about Gnome 3.
>
> I was looking at the list archives
> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/
> for another reason and I noticed a trend that might be relevant. Five
> years ago the gzipped text for a month of list traffic ran in the 4 to
> 5 MB range. Today it runs less than a MB.
>
> Now, there can be many reasons for that:
> - the traffic has been split to more specific lists
> - people are using other means to get help, such as forums and chat
> - Fedora has become so easy to use there aren't as many issues raised
> - people are voting with their feet and deserting Fedora
>
> If it is the last reason, that is troubling for the future. And it
> begs the question of *why* people might be deserting Fedora. Is it
> related to the sort of grumbling and dissatisfaction seen on the OT
> morons thread? I know there is some truth for me in that. It
> seems that the people doing the work want it to be trendy, in some
> cases just for trendiness' sake, while I care more about stability and
> functionality. That can also be viewed as making Fedora cutting
> edge, and it is hard to argue with that. Perhaps Fedora is shifting
> away from the sweet spot of my use, and I'll eventually have to look
> elsewhere. From another perspective, I suppose it means I'm not
> keeping up with Fedora. I can view that as an opportunity to change, I
> guess.
>
>
>

I would guess that there are only a finite number of questions one can
ask and they have been asked. Were you looking at comparable months., I
would bet the first months after list the postings where greater than
last month.
--
================================================== =====================
Good news is just life's way of keeping you off balance.
================================================== =====================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam@sbcglobal.net

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Old 03-21-2011, 10:51 PM
"Christopher A. Williams"
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On Mon, 2011-03-21 at 22:04 +0000, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Monday 21 March 2011 21:19:16 Vaclav Mocek wrote:
> > On 03/21/2011 06:19 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> > > On 03/21/2011 10:16 AM, stan wrote:
> > >> And it
> > >> begs the question of*why* people might be deserting Fedora.
> > >
> > > No it doesn't; it *ASKS* the question. "Begging the question" is a
> > > logical fallacy. Please stop using that term like an illiterate moron,
> > > even if it is common usage. Just because the common herd uses it
> > > doesn't make it right and to those of us who know what it means it makes
> > > you sound like an ID10T.
> >
> > From my Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary (2008):
> >
> > Idiom "beg the question"
> >
> > 1. to make somebody want to ask a question that has not yet been answered
> > "All of which begs the question as to who will fund the project."
> >
> > 2. to talk about something as if it were definitely true, even though it
> > might not be
> > "These assumptions beg the question that children learn languages
> > more easily than adults."
> >
> >
> > I am confused; it is an idiom, which is a part of Standard [British]
> > English and the previous usage seems to be correct.
>
> No need to be confused :-) . The idiom is (as you found out) completely ok and
> Stan used it properly.

If it helps (and admittedly it probably doesn't help much), the idiom is
also perfectly OK in U.S. English. From the Macmillan Dictionary and
Thesaurus, American English section:

"beg the question"

1. To make you want to know the answer to a particular question

2. Formal to discuss a problem, issue, or fact as if it definitely
exists, even though it may not exist

:-)

Chris


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Old 03-21-2011, 11:16 PM
les
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On Mon, 2011-03-21 at 15:38 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 03/21/2011 03:04 PM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> > It's just that Joe Zeff apparently has a bad day today. ;-) Or maybe he has
> > something personal against Stan and uses a public list to pass on a couple of
> > personal insults.
>
> Or, maybe, just maybe, I have a personal dislike for that particular
> barbarism, just as Mr. Wolfe once stated, "Contact is not a verb under
> *this* roof."

I find it rather amusing that you choose a fictional character to quote
in support of a barb, rather than the author who truly owns the words.
But to each his own. Rex Stout might be pleased or offended, depending
on how he identifies with his character.

In any event the phrase "begs the question" does have common use
according to Wikipedia, as has been quoted here:

Many English speakers assume "beg the question" means "raise the
question" and use it accordingly: for example, "this year's deficit is
half a trillion dollars, which begs the question: how are we ever going
to balance the budget?" Most commentators deem such usage incorrect.[10]

10. # ^ Follett (1966), 228; Kilpatrick (1997); Martin (2002), 71;
Safire (1998).

www.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
retrieved 3/21/2011.

Language grows by common use. As English has not become a dead
language but rather thrives in many places in the world it continuously
evolves.

Language is what one uses to communicate, and at best communications
via spoken or written word is about 70% useful, from my personal
observation.

Let us not discuss accuracy in spoken or written word, as no real
capability exists to quantify the transfer of accuracy by words,
although evidence to the contrary exists right in this discourse. We
must abide by common use to be understood, like it or not. This is one
reason that in centuries past, Latin was chosen to be a "language of
science", unfortunately science seems destined to outstrip the
capability of that long dead language to express the complex concepts
being uncovered almost daily.

The uselessness of grammar for some forms of communications has led to
development of formal protocols in many areas, such as: police
communications, aircraft terminal communications, inter-ship
communications, international communications and even to the unusual
shorthand that is quickly becoming formalized from twitter users.

Rebelling against the formality of grammar also produces such
delightful idioms as "That will go over like a lead balloon."

Of course the various combined dialects such as Spanglish or patois fly
in the face of formal grammar, yet the people using these forms of
speaking and or writing, manage to live their lives and communicate with
others quite well. And while I am not an erudite scholar, I love to
listen to people and try to understand their thought processes and their
backgrounds from the words they use and the mannerisms they use to
express themselves.

It is useful to remember that what constitutes good grammar in English
depends on a great deal more than the simple declaration it is English,
because of the number of wonderful countries and cultures using English
as the basis of their discourse.

It is even more useful to remember that here, many people from around
the world can see what you have written, and while it is not quite
stone, words on the internet tend to hang around for quite a while.

Good grammar is useful, when you can find it, but communications exist
without it as well.

Regards,


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Old 03-22-2011, 09:55 AM
Alan Cox
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 10:19:24 +0000
Andrew Haley <aph@redhat.com> wrote:

> On 22/03/11 09:54, Colin Paul Adams wrote:
> >>>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew Haley <aph@redhat.com> writes:
> >
> > Andrew> On 21/03/11 21:19, Vaclav Mocek wrote:
> > >>
> > Andrew> Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary really should warn
> > Andrew> learners that the first usage, although common, is
> > Andrew> technically incorrect.
> >
> > There's no such thing as technical correctness when it comes to
> > (human) languages.
>
> Even if I were to agree with that rather extreme non-prescriptivist
> opinion, the Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary should still warn
> learners about "begging the question". Whether the first usage is
> *actually* incorrect is irrelevant as long as some people believe that
> it is.

You can find someone on the internet who will believe anything is
incorrect. Oxford by the way take bug reports, so you can write them a
letter giving examples of the problematic usage and suggesting changes -
but IMHO you have to balance excessive detail against usefulness in
any learning process.


Anyway Humpty Dumpty had it right:

----


`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell
you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it
means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many
different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's
all.'

---- (Alice Through The Looking Glass: Lewis Carroll)


And that is probably the most intelligent discussion of "English" words
and language ever written...



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Old 03-22-2011, 10:35 AM
Alan Cox
 
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

> > You can find someone on the internet who will believe anything is
> > incorrect.
>
> Sure, but that's rather beside the point. We're not talking about the
> opinion of J.Random Nutter here, but about something that Fowler's
> Modern English Usage, also published by Oxford, warns about.

And.. there are a considerable number of people who consider that
Fowler's is J Random Nutter (notably everyone from Cambridge who don't
even agree with Oxford spelling rules)

> > Oxford by the way take bug reports, so you can write them a
> > letter giving examples of the problematic usage and suggesting changes -
> > but IMHO you have to balance excessive detail against usefulness in
> > any learning process.
>
> Indeed so, but the problem arose here because someone, quite
> reasonably, tried to use the Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary as an
> authority. It's clearly not fit too be used as one. I think that's

It's not an authority, there is no authority except the person who wrote
the words, hence Humpty.

> wrong: advanced learners deserve to be treated with a little more
> respect. Even if you believe that anything goes, it's unfair not to
> tell an advanced learner that there is a controversy.

We could all go one better. As it was obvious what they meant so you could
simply have assumed that meaning. Who *cares* about the finer points of
US v Indian v UK English providing people are understood ? Should I go
around correcting every time some American writes "If I was" or other
horrors ?

Alan
(Who considers the queens subjects to be the bits that go with the queens
verbs and the queens objects)

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