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Old 03-21-2011, 06:36 PM
Default Direction of Fedora desktop manager Gnome, related to complaints in OT morons thread

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 11:19:33 -0700
Joe Zeff <joe@zeff.us> wrote:

> On 03/21/2011 10:16 AM, stan wrote:
> > And it
> > begs the question of*why* people might be deserting Fedora.
> No it doesn't; it *ASKS* the question.

It doesn't ask the question. Asking 'Why might people be deserting
Fedora?' asks the question. I presume you meant, leads to the
question, or reveals the question, or forces the question, or inspires
the question, or opens the question, or begs the question. ;-)

> "Begging the question" is a logical fallacy.

That is one interpretation of "beg the question". However, when I
use a phrase, it means exactly what I want it to mean, no more and no
less. That can be wrong according to both or either of accepted and
common usage. How am I using the word beg in this case? It means that
to someone who hears this information, traffic is down, he would 'beg'
to know the answer to the followup question, 'Why might people be
deserting Fedora?', or that it personifies the information, and that
the information itself begs that the followup question be asked. Is
that not logical? Is it not just as justifiable logically as using the
phrase "beg the question" to mean a logical fallacy more easily
described as circular logic or evade the question. Historically,
someone must have been the first to use the phrase in that way, and no
doubt was roundly condemned as sounding like a moron and an idiot for
doing so. Generations later, it is accepted usage. I see this same
history in religion, though with more deadly consequences. The
descendant of the forced convert is willing to kill others. :-)

> Please stop using that term like an illiterate
> moron, even if it is common usage. Just because the common herd uses
> it doesn't make it right and to those of us who know what it means it
> makes you sound like an ID10T.

Historically, your interpretation is right. But as in so many things,
when times change, meaning changes or new meanings arise.

Three men from the countryside met in a city in ancient China and
became fast friends. Eventually, one of them died. Confucious, upon
hearing of the death, sent one of his disciples to offer condolences.
As the disciple approached the house where the viewing was occurring,
he heard the remaining two friends chanting,
Hey Sung Ho,
Where'd you go?
Hey Sung Ho,
Where'd you go?
Hey Sung Ho,
Where'd you go?
You are gone,
And we are here,
damn it!
You are gone,
And we are here,
damn it!
He rushed into the house and said, "What is the meaning of this
One of the two friends looked at the other and said, "Poor man, he
doesn't know the new liturgy."

You must get upset a lot of the time, since language, and other
things, changes so rapidly and so commonly these days.

In any case, I want to thank you for taking the time to correct me,
allowing me to learn something new, though I would have welcomed a
slightly less abrupt and ambiguous manner. Something along the lines
"Your usage of the phrase "begs the question" is incorrect. It actually
means the logical fallacy of circular logic. When I hear or see it
used as you have, I interpret that as meaning the user is a moron and an
idiot. While others might not be quite so harsh, it would probably be
to your benefit to avoid using it as you do."
Of course, I appreciate that you did not *call* me a moron and an idiot.
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